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PsyChris
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Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 1391
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:02 pm
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I don't think he should be judged as a psychiatrist. Being a psychiatrist does not make you go on murderous rampages.
He is at individual fault for not seeking help when under stress. |
satanstoystore
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 8019
Location: seattle
Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:30 pm
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oh i didnt mean to imply that illogical leap. Placing blame on psychiatry as a whole, for one mans murders, is silly. your end statement is actually a bit closer to what i am getting at. psychiatry didnt help him.
i remember an old article about physicians not being invincible.they have 2-3 times the suicide rate, and 40%+ were under the care of a psychiatrist. if they are3nt that eff3ective, why are they highly credentialed? and for what, telling people what they cant fix? and why are they held in such esteem? |
Datura
Preferred Member
Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 373
Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:28 am
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They are "highly credentialed" because of their ability to excel in what most would consider difficult, lengthy studies. Their emotional state is secondary. You get the grades, you get the degree.
And you say, "physicians." It's unclear to me if that encompasses every doctor, or if you are referring to psychologists/psychiatrists. If it's the latter, then maybe that article you speak of gives some insight as to when these doctors allegedly sought out their own mental health professionals. Listening to peoples problems all day would likely be daunting.
quote:
psychiatry didnt help him.
Was he looking for help? Not a smart ass answer; I know little of the details. If not, therein lies the problem. |
Sluagh
Senior Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 1098
Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:13 pm
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Vicarious ptsd/trauma could have led him to 'snap'
Just another example why supervision AND personal therapy is so vital for people in such a helping profession |
satanstoystore
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Posts: 8019
Location: seattle
Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:55 pm
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i think the study was long term, from the 60's to end of study, late 80's. they studied psychiatrists. title may be physicians are not invincible. i thought it was credible b/c is was primarily for physicians and psychiatrists.its not something they would use to say, oh look psychiatry sucks 40 to 50 percent of the time.
if people needed someone who could study a lot over the long term to rid them of an issue, like an attorney/solicitor, then i would say their degree is useful. since things like depression dont require that, it seems pretty useless. what psychaitry does need is the ability to help someone else manage their feelings.
whether or not he sought help isnt the issue.he was a psychiatrist. something they do have thats pretty useful is a set of criteria that would help him determine when a person needs intervention (like himself). but since they lack the ability or know how to managesomeone elses feelings, i would not be surprised if he didnt seek out help.
that in itself is telling. if i have a problem that can be fixed by someone, i dont hesitate to call them. what if the doctor didnt ask for help? why would that be? as a psychiatrist, if depression could be cured, he would know. he would have hope if he had certainty; he would have despair if there was sufficient doubt.well thats my mindread but i doubt its too far from what was going on.i hope he survives so they can ask him. |
PsyChris
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Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 1391
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:59 pm
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So by your line of thinking, there should be no plumbers with leaky faucets, mechanics with rattling cars, accountants with past due bills, editors making grammar mistakes or overweight doctors? Even closer to home, there should be no therapists with anxiety. It's obvious that this is not the case. I think training for mental health professionals is focused on seeking help from your peers when you cannot cope professionally but your personal life is a gray area.
I think its a common misconception that if you can learn the therapeutic methods and get your patients to adopt them that you will be able to enact them on yourself when necessary. That second non-judgmental and objective voice takes on much greater importance when you are actually in a crisis. |
kapitokrug
Full Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 168
Location: New York
Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:54 am
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From my perspective, this thread reflects exactly why this Doc went nuts and at least wasn't preempted - people are obsessed with evidence and reacting to it. Intentions fall behind actions on our list of priorities, and everyone's always trying to do the inoffensive, moderated, centrist, pragmatic thing in order to stay on everyone's good side.
Nothing good ever comes from that. The world just stagnates until anxiety boils over and one explosion happens after the next because everyone's trying to stay quiet or say "hush" to the next person.
The rules say no politics here, but the only way things like this can be prevented over the long run (without totalitarian bureaucratic oversight that are even worse) is if people are independently honest. Character is what it boils down to in the end, and if people want to manipulate in order to be entertaining and witty while making examples of those who suffer from the side effects, then it neither matters what we do nor does anyone deserve peace in the end.
With regards to psychology, psychiatry, therapy, etc, these practices boil down to normality versus abnormality in the definition of health, and it would be extremely naive to claim that normality is a concept independent of political factors. The fact is that people have special interests that get transmitted into culture, and it's that culture which establishes what behaviors and attitudes are viable as well as which are not.
To me, the bottomlines are transparency and cooperation, and those who don't want to be either transparent or cooperative need to be held in suspicion; not necessarily isolation, but they need to be wondered about. Unfortunately, entertainers take advantage of this themselves, so wittiness and charisma need to be held in suspicion as well.
Heck, I'd say everything needs to be held in suspicion to some degree, but if this becomes an active process, then again, society is going to stagnate because of administrative redundancies, so this needs to become a passive and intuitive process rather than something we demand explicit engagement in, engagement which would be ultimately dependent upon monopolies on violence to provide enforcement.
Personally, this whole politics to enforcement train of thought is one of the reasons I found, and find, it easier to talk to a priest than a shrink. Priests are engaged directly with the community and there's no direct economic exchange taking place. Docs on the other hand can only assist indirectly, and there's always that skepticism in the back of the head about how the Doc's living is on the line. Yes, the doc's trust from his overall reputation is more economically reliable than from keeping individual clients around, but ultimately, the Doc's practice is a business that supports his or her own self-interests. Confessing and getting counsel from a priest is free though, and they go beyond scripture if you're intelligent enough to have complex problems anyway (not to mention that there's a million priests and ministers around to switch between on demand if you're not happy with a particular one). On the other side, they appreciate and witness it when you're charitably involved, so you don't have to remember and translate every little detail like when you do with a doc.
Kinda like a good friend versus a stranger, I guess that's what the difference is similar to, and I guess that's why I referred to character, transparency, and cooperation above. The more the world grows, the more the world needs more friends and less strangers. If this guy at Ft Hood wasn't so disconnected for w/e reason and if he was part of a community, or communities, that embraced and engaged him on a mutually throughout his life, I don't believe he would have been strained to the point of snapping like he did. Then, he would have learned to improvise, and those around him would have anticipated his personality demands such that culture would have adapted and the domino effects that started this (from God knows where) would have been stopped in their tracks way before they climaxed unto this.
Last edited by kapitokrug on Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
kapitokrug
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Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 168
Location: New York
Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:55 am
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There's a lot more I could have said about that (i.e. information technology, first order v higher order problems, herd behavior, groupthink, peer pressure, appeals to authority, why we like to be victimized through fear, horror, and trauma since it lets us afford to be lazy, etc), but I think that anyone who got what I'm saying should already be able to intuitively see how those points fit into place.
Likewise, anyone who can't because they're obsessed with evidence should not be able to, and I'd rather not reveal what I'm talking about since it would spoil of the effort of talking about how to make the world a better place.
Maybe that makes me a hypocrite regarding transparency and evidence, but then maybe Thomas Malthus was right about being a misanthropist over mankind being doomed to its own viral nature, and if that's the case, then I guess there really isn't anything to be done. Instead, we should all just be a bunch of myopic hedonists who are obsessed with totem pole hierarchies and becoming powerful through sophistication in order to take pride from being able to call others sick while they can't call ourselves sick.
Mind that I'd rather not be a cynic here, but if I'm not going to be given the benefit of the doubt for being honest in my approach, then I guess that's what I am and anyone who disagrees would be naive. |
satanstoystore
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 8019
Location: seattle
Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:33 am
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quote:
Originally posted by PsyChris
So by your line of thinking, there should be no plumbers with leaky faucets, mechanics with rattling cars, accountants with past due bills, editors making grammar mistakes or overweight doctors? ...
look, I obviously hit a sore spot somewhere. Let's clear up a few things. I don't think it's fair to depressants and suicides to analogize them as leaks, rattles, late bills, and grammatical errors. if you're going to paraphrase an analogy and mismatch comparisons, then let's do away with them altogether.
Back to the point: psychiatrists are by and large ineffective. So why are the highly credentialed? why are they held in such esteem?
I think you bring up a great point right here:
"I think its a common misconception that if you can learn the therapeutic methods and get your patients to adopt them.."
Yah, I know it's out of context and I'm not completing your sentence but read it again and remove the IF:
"I think its a common misconception that you can learn the therapeutic methods and get your patients to adopt them"
Isn't that where the failure stems from? Where's the breakdown? in the methods? or their adoption? At what point is it obvious that it's one, or the other?
What I'm saying is the breakdown is in the methods. And our perception of them and the methods are faulty. |
satanstoystore
MVP
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 8019
Location: seattle
Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:45 am
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quote:
Originally posted by Sluagh
...supervision AND personal therapy is so vital for people in such a helping profession
agreed. though any therapy would unfortunately be by a peer with some investment in the war. I doubt he would have felt safe expressing his antiwar outrage.
again, if psychiatry wasn't looked up at so much perhaps he wouldn't have had to vicariously live such a volume of trauma. |
polymath
Preferred Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 649
Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:06 am
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Really great posts on this topic.
I think the gov. simply dropped the ball here and some heads need to roll. Its coming out that this guy was attempting to connect with foreign terror organizations and had made public statements showing his real views.
I am most certainly not a Muslim-bashing bigot but political correctness is literally killing this country. It is very apparent that the powers that be were influenced to deny this guy's actions and words leading up to this incident. He was a disgruntled Muslim man put in a position of high authority and was putting off red flag after red flag, totally ignored because we may offend someone.
People dont have to like it but there are individuals and groups in this world who HATE our way of life and want to bring it to an end, and those people have ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in sitting down and talking with us. They are extremists hell bent on shoving their views down our throats or slitting them. Muslims, Christians, Marxists, Capitalists, whatever, blah, blah. Extremism is the real culprit here. Anyone can have any view they want but attempts to force it needs to be met with force. |
Triarius
Senior Member
Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 4805
Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:09 pm
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2) we're ignoring the ineffectiveness of psychiatry. What are your thoughts?
Amen.
I'd like to add that the suspect is ranked as a Major. That takes a LOT of dedication to attain that rank. When you're dealing with psychopathic fundamentalists, logic and reason have nothing to do with their choices. This guy sacrificed a decent career in the most powerful country and a life with an apparently loving family because of his faith.
When even the Dalai Lama praises Bush Jr. for his swift and decisive actions against unreasonable people, you know that there is no rational way to deal with this problem:
http://worldwideliberty.blogspot.com/2009/05/dalai-lama-praises-president-bush.html |
PsyChris
MVP
Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 1391
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:53 pm
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quote:
Originally posted by satanstoystore
quote:
Originally posted by PsyChris
So by your line of thinking, there should be no plumbers with leaky faucets, mechanics with rattling cars, accountants with past due bills, editors making grammar mistakes or overweight doctors? ...
look, I obviously hit a sore spot somewhere. Let's clear up a few things. I don't think it's fair to depressants and suicides to analogize them as leaks, rattles, late bills, and grammatical errors. if you're going to paraphrase an analogy and mismatch comparisons, then let's do away with them altogether.
Back to the point: psychiatrists are by and large ineffective. So why are the highly credentialed? why are they held in such esteem?
I think you bring up a great point right here:
"I think its a common misconception that if you can learn the therapeutic methods and get your patients to adopt them.."
Yah, I know it's out of context and I'm not completing your sentence but read it again and remove the IF:
"I think its a common misconception that you can learn the therapeutic methods and get your patients to adopt them"
Isn't that where the failure stems from? Where's the breakdown? in the methods? or their adoption? At what point is it obvious that it's one, or the other?
What I'm saying is the breakdown is in the methods. And our perception of them and the methods are faulty.
haha are you reflecting? I am not upset at all. If you are just going to keep disregarding everything I say because it doesn't drive home your point about the ineffectiveness of psychiatry.. I can't really actively discuss this with you.
Psychiatry serves a purpose that is different from psychology and therapy in general. Some psychiatrists DO conduct therapy but usually only if they have postgraduate training effectively also making them a therapist. Psychiatrists provide medication to patients that need it. We can launch into the debate about the ineffectiveness of the tools given to psychiatrists to use but we will probably generally agree there. I would like for many mental illnesses to be treated with non-medical means but thus far that is not the case. |
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