How does amnesia work?

Postby Hypnoboy » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:08 pm

Hello I would like to know how exactly amnesia works. My idea is that you have someone in trance quite deep.

The hypnotic scale scores are different for partial amnesia and total amnesia.

But I want to know what to say, because I understand less about the way the suggestions work. Is it possible that people forget that they were hypnotized?

But then it might be that they also forget the posthypnotic instructions given under hypnosis.

How does that work?
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Postby jargan » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:45 pm

A common idea that I'm quite partial of is that people don't really forget things, but they get hard to recover consciously (and often, even in everyday life, parts of memories never make it into long-term memory at all).

Don't rely too much on "official" scales, by the way. Many hypnotists find that people tend to have their own individual scales.
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Postby Anthony Jacquin » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:58 pm

Hypnoboy wrote:
But I want to know what to say, because I understand less about the way the suggestions work. Is it possible that people forget that they were hypnotized?

But then it might be that they also forget the posthypnotic instructions given under hypnosis.

How does that work?


Hi,

I do not really see it as a depth thing. I find if someone can forget one thing like their name they are a suggestion away from total amnesia.

I agree with Jargan, suggested amnesia is a recall issue. Anything forgotten because of suggestion can be remembered because of another suggestion.

Amnesia is often the first real cognitive/mental suggestion I give so I really work hard to ensure it sticks. Tips that might help are:

- Compund the suggestion in a variety of ways. Cannot think, say or remember
- Take the edge off of the suggestion by saying it will be 'just for a time'. Some people panic if the thought goes through their mind 'I need my name'
- Create a strong moment. i.e undoing of another suggestion is coupled with the amnesia.
- Ask a distracting question upon waking the subject as often they are busy doing their best repeating their name in their head while the suggestion is being given.
- Look at them with an expression that suggests their is no way you are going to recall this i.e the crazy uncle stare :)
- Add a dollop of emotion regarding how they will feel about the experience of amnesia.

Surprisingly giving someone a suggestion they will not recall being hypnotised does not affect the specific amnesia siggestion.

Hope that helps.

Anthony
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Postby StarShadow » Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:50 am

I would suggest reminding your client/patient/self just how easy and natural amnesia is, before you give suggestions to utilize it. It happens to everyone after all. Have you ever seen someone you know and for the life of you, you just can not remember their name, and then some time after they're gone it just comes back to you? Phone numbers are a great example, damn near everyone has forgotten a phone number at some time.

The same principle applies to many things that hypnotic 'scales' /'depth' measurements consider difficult to elicit. For example, people experience positive & negative hallucination all the time even though according to most, if not all scales, it's supposed to be difficult to elicit.
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Postby kevsheldrake » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:07 am

Hypnoboy wrote:Is it possible that people forget that they were hypnotized?

But then it might be that they also forget the posthypnotic instructions given under hypnosis.

How does that work?


Inability to recall a PHS appears to be separate from the need to act upon it.

Kev
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Postby Wizard_of_trance » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:41 pm

Hypnoboy wrote:Hello I would like to know how exactly amnesia works. My idea is that you have someone in trance quite deep.

The hypnotic scale scores are different for partial amnesia and total amnesia.

But I want to know what to say, because I understand less about the way the suggestions work. Is it possible that people forget that they were hypnotized?

But then it might be that they also forget the posthypnotic instructions given under hypnosis.

How does that work?
\

I have found that suggestions during trance are automatically reacted to (as long as what the reaction should be is understood by the subject, and there is no reason not to) without the involvement of the conscious mind.

It is possible to make people forget they were hypnotized. It is also possible to give them a post hypnotic suggestion and have them forget it was given to them.

According to my model; during somnambulism the analytical mind, including the critical factor (described as our ability to determine what is real and what is true) goes dormant.

The imagination is then providing input that is indistinguishable from the input received from the outside world. We then just automatically react to suggestion (which is just another form of input that can be automatically reacted to) as best we are able/understand how to.

Short term memory appears to be stored in the analytical mind, and long term "recorded" memory appears to be stored in the reactive mind.

We lose the short term memory during somnambulism because the analytical mind is dormant. We can bring it back because everything we experience in life is "recorded" in long term memory by the reactive mind.

The rest is just automatic reaction to specific suggestion.

I hope this is understandable in the way that I said it
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Postby Anthony Jacquin » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:47 pm

John,

your definition of the critical faculty is the first useful one I have heard.

That aside when hypnotised why is it that the subject only seems to respond to suggestions from the hypnotist?

Anthony
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Postby Wildcard » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:44 pm

Hey John,

"We lose the short term memory during somnambulism because the analytical mind is dormant. "

I dont quite understand what you mean by that. Could you explain it to me?

If we were to lose short term memory at all...even if just in somnambulism...then we would not be able to reason or plan things out, because short term memory...or working memory...plays a big role in those cognitive processes.

So I dont understand...because even hypnotized people on stage are capable of reason and planning something out.

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Postby kevsheldrake » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:55 pm

Wizard_of_trance wrote:We lose the short term memory during somnambulism because the analytical mind is dormant.


All short term memory or just the short term memory associated with the differences in reality created from the suggestions given?

Also, if the analytical mind is dormant, would it be impossible for a subject to complete a difficult sudoku or crossword while hypnotised?

Cheers

Kev

PS I've been busy but I'll be getting to your ebook this week.
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Postby Anthony Jacquin » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:10 pm

Wildcard wrote:...then we would not be able to reason or plan things out, because short term memory...or working memory...plays a big role in those cognitive processes.

Wildcard


I believe there is some evidence that there is some change in brain activity in the left frontal lobe, the area concerned with future planning amongst other things. Not sure what this has to do with amnesia or logic.

"The frontal lobe is concerned with our planning, our future actions, our analysis of the here and now, our critical evaluation and the things we do so we don't make silly mistakes," said Dr John Gruzelier of Imperial College, London.

Ant
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Postby Wizard_of_trance » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:17 pm

Anthony Jacquin wrote:John,

your definition of the critical faculty is the first useful one I have heard.

That aside when hypnotised why is it that the subject only seems to respond to suggestions from the hypnotist?

Anthony


Hi Anthony :)

It appears to be an issue of trust. I have witnessed subjects responding to other than the hypnotist before, but it was suggested it was okay and the subject knew it was moderated by the hypnotist.

In my model that would be the function of the watchdog.. of the judgmental mind.
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Postby Wizard_of_trance » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:37 pm

Wildcard wrote:Hey John,

"We lose the short term memory during somnambulism because the analytical mind is dormant. "

I dont quite understand what you mean by that. Could you explain it to me?

If we were to lose short term memory at all...even if just in somnambulism...then we would not be able to reason or plan things out, because short term memory...or working memory...plays a big role in those cognitive processes.

So I dont understand...because even hypnotized people on stage are capable of reason and planning something out.

Wildcard


Sure. In my model of the minds, the analytical mind is the one that is the interface with the outside world (hence: the critical factor providing what is real and true about it via that interface)

Short term memory, is the memory function of the analytical mind, identifying what happens in the world around us, and to us, to be used for analysis to determine the truth/reality of it.

The intellect you speak of is what I call the judgmental mind, which is never dormant. It is our decision/behavior center, as well as our intellect and feeling center.

So the intellect still works, but it doesn't know what is real or true, since it gets it's "outside input" via the imagination. This is why you can count to 11 on your fingers, only speak in Chinese, and have positive and negative hallucinations that can be interacted with, etc.

I have also found that another major factor in the loss of short term memory during hypnosis is the use of the "sleep" command, and how our mind reacts to it (further shutting down the outside input bridge of the analytical mind). We have the same memory about somnambulistic hypnosis sessions as we do about what we have dreamed.

I have played with this one quite a bit. I do a lot of open eye trance in which I get positive and negative hallucinations, and have found that unless I use the sleep command, there is no memory loss.

I hope that answers your question
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Postby Wizard_of_trance » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:42 pm

kevsheldrake wrote:
Wizard_of_trance wrote:We lose the short term memory during somnambulism because the analytical mind is dormant.


All short term memory or just the short term memory associated with the differences in reality created from the suggestions given?

Also, if the analytical mind is dormant, would it be impossible for a subject to complete a difficult sudoku or crossword while hypnotised?

Cheers

Kev

PS I've been busy but I'll be getting to your ebook this week.


Kev,
Since, in my model, the analytical mind is not the main intellect, but the interface to the outside world with a mission. It should be possible for the subject to do a crossword or sudoku while hypnotized. However; I will also say that I think it might be an activity that would bring them out of trance. It seems like a good test, I will have to try it!

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Postby Wildcard » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:49 pm

Nobody thinking about Alzheimer´s?
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Postby Hypnoboy » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:23 pm

Anthony Jacquin wrote:
Hypnoboy wrote:
But I want to know what to say, because I understand less about the way the suggestions work. Is it possible that people forget that they were hypnotized?

But then it might be that they also forget the posthypnotic instructions given under hypnosis.

How does that work?


Hi,

I do not really see it as a depth thing. I find if someone can forget one thing like their name they are a suggestion away from total amnesia.

I agree with Jargan, suggested amnesia is a recall issue. Anything forgotten because of suggestion can be remembered because of another suggestion.



I thought amnesia and also for instance generalizing were mechanisms of the unconsiousness. (correct me if I am wrong) How can you and Jargan see it so easy? The unconsiousness has it's own mechanisms to forget something; it makes it's own decisions what to remember and what not.

Said in this way my 'fear' is a little that it is easier to make people forget things and that a amnesia sugestion needs more attention.

Is this extra attention correctly?
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