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Freudian
Preferred Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 318
Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:16 am
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The other day I visited a local counselling service for an initial assessment.
That sounds promising.
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While being interviewed I told her some of what I've been telling you and she said that their services may not be able to help me as the point of counselling is for change within the patient, I however seem to need change in the world.
Not quite. It's your view of the world that should be changed, with which the counselling service should be capable of providing you assistance.
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The reason I began this thread was because I wanted to pour out my entire negative view of mankind
There you are, verification of my above remark.
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and see whether people would confirm it or disprove it. And so far people have seen them done both.
"Prove it"?? How??
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To recap, what makes me feel so low is the possibility of man's lack of integrity.
This is always possible. I think, what you want confirmed is a perfect view of mankind. The more important question should be how likely are you to sacrifice your own integrity.
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That most people would rather commit acts of evil rather than die,
that people distort the truth, either actively to serve some personal or political agenda, or unconsciously find their own prejudice.
All possible. Do you really think people would prefer to commit evil acts or be dishonest? I think people would rather go through alot less hassle, don't you? If pride and honour can't be found within concession, then trouble usually breeds more trouble; pettiness usually encourages more pettiness. Aren't you inclined to agree that people would rather not have themselves lost within such a meaningless, tiresome and endless cycle??
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The fact that there is always wrong doing and manipulation in the world, that I can accept. But only if it is the minority rather than the majority of the world that he's like that.
Why would you think the majority of the world would be like that?
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I could live more happily if I knew these unspeakable acts were always the exception rather than the rule of thumb.
Why should they be an exception? Where you'll find disorder in a society, you'll have people taking advantage of the disorder, especially if they are desperate.
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And this quote from motivated…
"The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduces them. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim." -Gustave Le Bon
Is this really true? I have never heard of this Gustave Le Bon before but when I see a quote like this I can't help but believe it because people wouldn't quote it if it wasn't a powerful truth.
If they thought this were full of powerful truth, then yes, perhaps they will quote it. If it relates to their feelings and perspectives, why wouldn't they?
Really, if that quote were even true (nevermind 'powerfully' true), how do you think humanity progressed during its entire existence??? Can one find a truth about you within that quote??
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On the other hand I have tried at times to think more positively, even coming up with a few quotes of my own.
“The very fact that we humans criticise ourselves for being monsters is proof that we are not, monsters wouldn't care what they did.”
That's very good. You should question your negative views more often. What kind of a thinker would you be if you didn't?
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Ever since I was a child I have believed in chivalry and heroism and valiant knights great white horses, (metaphorically).
But you've allowed a few bad seeds turn against yourself. How could you let them gain this invaluable advantage?? What authority or 'greater power' or (if indeed you are a student of truth and reason) 'greater truth and reasoning' do these bad people have to convince you to drop this belief? Do you, in fact, see abit of yourself within these people?
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But I'm increasingly afraid that such things cannot exist, after all real knights were trained soldiers and service to the King and his agenda.
...and that all knights must be subservient, and even slaves, to the king? That they are automatically incapable of independent and individual thoughts and opinions. And it is only without the king that they will finally be able to distinguish correctly for themselves what is right or wrong...
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As a UK citizen I used to be proud of the history of the British Empire until I learned what it was like all the people we invaded and oppressed. I think proto-Nazis would be a good description of the British in that period, and yet through all that history there was little doubt that they were great and glorious.
What do you think of the Mongol Empire and Genghis Khan? Or any other empire for that matter? |
Tailspin
Junior Member
Joined: 11 Jul 2009
Posts: 62
Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:16 pm
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You told me that fiction was a poor choice for basing a factual opinion of the world but evidence of my fears exist in the real world.
Just look at this...
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/ten-politically-incorrect-truths-about-human-nature
In Third World countries, violence and crime are a part of daily life, in Somalia Pirates raid ships, threatening to kill innocent crewmen to get food for their families, never mind the pain they may bring to the families of their victims.
I was told about a recent shipwreck off the coast of South America, how the people stampeded for the lifeboats, how they said all they could think about was escape. And if that weren't enough, the ship owners tried to make the captain into a scapegoat to avoid negative PR.
Governments create sealed files containing evidence that isn't released the public 20 years or more, if that. How could anyone trust the government that does that? If the government doesn't want to be embarrassed then they shouldn't have committed embarrassing acts to begin with. If I were in charge there would be no such thing as classified or cover-ups, every scandalous affair that the government had ever committed would be released to the public.
And yes I agree that the British Empire's actions were less harmful then the other empires that time, but that does not make it any more excusable. Had I been ruler of the British Empire, my very first act would be to go on international radio announce to the entire empire that I was going to disband it, I would have renounced my own empire as " a blight upon the human conscience " poured out my entire disgust at our nation's actions over the generations and immediately give the colonies full independence without any compensation in return.
When the Hoover Dam was under construction, many men fell victim to carbon monoxide poisoning from the heavy machinery in the tunnels and lawsuits were filed, potentially enough to cripple the operation. But rather than pay, the management insisted the men's symptoms were the effects of pneumonia and went as far as to set up one of the men with a prostitute to discredit his character on the witness stand.
Had I been in charge of the project, I would have not even put up a fight in court and gladly paid every man every dollar he deserved, actually I would never have sent men into those tunnels under those conditions in the first place.
Ever since I was a little boy I have a strong sense of right and wrong, but if right and wrong are nothing more then people's opinions, the figments of their imagination, how can my moral code possibly have any credit? The world seems to be a gigantic moral quagmire. How could I ever do anything not knowing if what I was doing was right.
The world has disgusted me so much that there are times when I am no longer want to be a part of it. I am not saying I wanted to end it all, but in the past, when I was at my worst, there were brief moments when I thought it would be very easy to do so. |
Freudian
Preferred Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 318
Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:42 am
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You told me that fiction was a poor choice for basing a factual opinion of the world but evidence of my fears exist in the real world.
Just look at this...
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/ten-politically-incorrect-truths-about-human-nature
What are you saying here? That this website is somehow evidence of your fears???
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In Third World countries, violence and crime are a part of daily life, in Somalia Pirates raid ships, threatening to kill innocent crewmen to get food for their families, never mind the pain they may bring to the families of their victims.
Are you a pirate yourself? How do you know what those pirates are thinking? Were you there during an incident involving those pirates??
What point are you even trying to make here?? Is the Somalian government, and goverments across the world, not doing something about them? Perhaps they are people that hail from exceptional backgrounds; perhaps life had pushed them to a point of desperation where this path of life seemed to be one of a few other undesirable options. Their exceptional circumstances that lead them to their ways of thought can't surely be seen as representatives of the whole human race, can they??
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I was told about a recent shipwreck off the coast of South America, how the people stampeded for the lifeboats, how they said all they could think about was escape. And if that weren't enough, the ship owners tried to make the captain into a scapegoat to avoid negative PR.
Where you there? You were told the full details, perhaps? And the person who told you is a reliable source, i'm sure. I still don't know why you've personalised these incidents so deeply. I'll ask again, are you seeing parts of yourself within these incidents?
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Governments create sealed files containing evidence that isn't released the public 20 years or more, if that. How could anyone trust the government that does that?
Perhaps you'll treat the widespread mistrust of governments as a positive and hopeful sign of human morality...
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If the government doesn't want to be embarrassed then they shouldn't have committed embarrassing acts to begin with.
It's easier said with the help of hindsight, isn't it...
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If I were in charge there would be no such thing as classified or cover-ups, every scandalous affair that the government had ever committed would be released to the public.
Then perhaps you should aspire to be in charge.
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And yes I agree that the British Empire's actions were less harmful then the other empires that time, but that does not make it any more excusable.
Wasn't the point i was trying to make. Read on.
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Had I been ruler of the British Empire, my very first act would be to go on international radio announce to the entire empire that I was going to disband it,
Easier said than done. There are economic, political and social concerns to be considered.
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I would have renounced my own empire as " a blight upon the human conscience " poured out my entire disgust at our nation's actions over the generations and immediately give the colonies full independence without any compensation in return.
You mentioned this in your very first post:
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And those also seem to be the people who thrive, the ancient Romans massacred millions of native peoples, subjected others to a life of slavery and they became the greatest empire the world had ever seen.
Some sees the Mongol Empire this way too, and perhaps it's easier with these empires, and others (since formation of empires seem to hardly ever go without cruelty and brutality), without the graphic details of the atrocities committed, as we have with more modern empires.
And if the people of some other vulnerably positioned country, that is also barren of vast and exotic resources (making it rather difficult to find something useful to export (especially to countries which possess these vast and exotic resources), meaning they'll have to resort to build from what they have (creativity and ideas)) and belonging to a very fragmented continent (thereby encouraging great competition between countries), had the creativity to build guns after the discovery of gunpowder, it probably wouldn't be left to Britain to build such a vast empire.
Again, there's no reason for you to personalise these events, especially those that happened long in the past. We are a new generation; a new people on this earth, with a great potential of being far wiser than any of our ancestors, and being finest generation in that position (with the benefit of history, particularly so).
Try to view events objectively; leave your emotions to one side. This way, you will less likely be influenced by bias and prejudice.
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When the Hoover Dam was under construction, many men fell victim to carbon monoxide poisoning from the heavy machinery in the tunnels and lawsuits were filed, potentially enough to cripple the operation. But rather than pay, the management insisted the men's symptoms were the effects of pneumonia and went as far as to set up one of the men with a prostitute to discredit his character on the witness stand.
Out of all the dams that have ever been built in history, you pick one rather exceptional case as evidence for your view of humanity??? It seems you're just handpicking the worst of them all.
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Had I been in charge of the project, I would have not even put up a fight in court and gladly paid every man every dollar he deserved, actually I would never have sent men into those tunnels under those conditions in the first place.
Alright then, perhaps you should commence a deep study of politics, economics and philosophy. With strong additions of history and literature.
I hope to see you campaigning as an MP in a few years time.
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Ever since I was a little boy I have a strong sense of right and wrong, but if right and wrong are nothing more then people's opinions, the figments of their imagination, how can my moral code possibly have any credit?
How can it not?? Do you not have faith in yourself?? If you give credit to the moral codes of others (so much so that it puts yours into question), then why shouldn't you give credit to your own moral code??
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The world seems to be a gigantic moral quagmire.
To you. You seem to be talking more about yourself here.
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How could I ever do anything not knowing if what I was doing was right.
And do you know? Can't you distinguish between what is right or wrong?
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The world has disgusted me so much that there are times when I am no longer want to be a part of it. I am not saying I wanted to end it all, but in the past, when I was at my worst, there were brief moments when I thought it would be very easy to do so.
You've chosen to be disgusted by ignoring the positive things in the world.
I'm very sorry Tailspin, but i think i might have to move on. It seems all you do is pose examples of 'negative' incidents to me, and other users, from which we perform the very tiresome task of extracting something positive or neutral.
Be a skeptic (like David Hume); question every undesirable (negative) conclusion you draw.
You can use that website you mentioned at the beginning of this post to practice doing this. |
Tailspin
Junior Member
Joined: 11 Jul 2009
Posts: 62
Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:38 am
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Freudian, I'm sorry if I've upset you, please don't shut me out, you're one of the few people in this blog whose opinions I consider worthwhile. I understand how you must be feeling, even going at this for weeks and I don't seem to have made any progress and now I feel bad because I've run you into the ground, but I hope you read this because they don't want us to part on such bad terms.
I don't want to be one of those incredibly cynical and negative people, I hate people like that, I have only ever been like that because I felt that, given the evidence, it was a more correct view of the world.
Around the time my moral crisis began I told my mother how I was feeling. She said what I was talking about was altruism in that it simply was not practical in the real world. That deeply affected me. Forget about practicality, can be good was something that went beyond practicality, something greater than simply surviving. Almost as long as I can remember I've always been determined to be one of the good guys and never ever devolve into something evil, when I was to hold that there was no absolute morality, that was when the work was pulled out from under me and I've never had as much faith in my moral code since.
When I mentioned Somalia earlier it was to prove my fears, other people's morality can only be as good as their level of civilisation. I consider our people to be on moral civilisation but I can't help but wonder if it's only because we have so much. These Somalians seem to prove that there is nothing people won't sink to the name of survival. But to be fair, everything I know about the Somalian situation comes from a South Park episode and before then I had never even heard of Somalia.
Also, a part of me is afraid. Afraid that sometime soon, some horrible catastrophe will strike our civilisation and I will see everyone around me turn into a monster, I don't believe I would and that these be feeling very isolated, like I'm on an alien planet. The difference being morality rather than species. We discussed my loneliness earlier, it is possible that part of the reason I don't seek people out is because I don't want to know people. People who could turn out to be beasts disguised as good people, a disguise that all is when things get tough.
I don't seek out these negative examples of humanity. On the contrary I can't seem to go through daily life without being bombarded by them.
Something I noticed about fiction is that children's stories and films are very nice, the main characters are pillars of integrity, good guys always win and the right choices made without any confusion or regards to whether it's beneficial to the heros but grown up stories and films have much more darkness, it's full of grey areas and moral ambiguity, the heroes become corrupted by hardship, vengeance or greed. There is no end of negative criticism about humanity, I stopped reading the Artemis Fowl books because I couldn't take all the cynicism towards our species. Even in ordinary fiction there are constant digs against humanity. And if anything sweet and nice does come up its rejected by adults.
From this I drew the conclusion that as children, we are given an illusion good guys and bad guys and moral integrity above all else. But when we grow up we are let in on the horrible truth that life is one giant struggle to survive and valuing anything above that is laughable.
Once again I'm sorry if I've driven you you away, I truly value your input and wisdom. I don't know if you've heard about the riots we had across England about two years ago, on TV a person about my age said the senseless violence of the riots confirmed her feelings about man's darkness. At the time I thought they were proof of man's goodness, of the people in the UK, thousands riot in the streets for no good reason, but millions did not.
I can be positive Freudian, I just have difficulty believing that I should. |
Freudian
Preferred Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 318
Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:28 am
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Freudian, I'm sorry if I've upset you,
What? Where did it indicate that you have left me feeling upset? There is nothing for which you have to apologise! I am not upset; just rather tired of not finding any new ways to think through your problems, and applying the same method time and again. That's all.
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please don't shut me out,
Well, i said i "think i might have to move on", which is a phrase full of hesitance.
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you're one of the few people in this blog whose opinions I consider worthwhile.
Thank you. It's good to know that somebody finds my ramblings useful.
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I understand how you must be feeling, even going at this for weeks and I don't seem to have made any progress and now I feel bad because I've run you into the ground,
Well, i wouldn't put it that way. I'm just in need of a new approach.
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but I hope you read this because they don't want us to part on such bad terms.
I wouldn't consider them as 'bad terms'. And who doesn't?
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I don't want to be one of those incredibly cynical and negative people, I hate people like that, I have only ever been like that because I felt that, given the evidence, it was a more correct view of the world.
What evidence? And how does the evidence validate your conclusions?
I suspect that you have, as usual, generalised, exaggerated and personalised a few bad incidents. Why do you keep doing this??
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Around the time my moral crisis began I told my mother how I was feeling. She said what I was talking about was altruism in that it simply was not practical in the real world.
Being practical - is this, to you, all there is to life? Does your dignity and integrity not matter to you? We are humans, for goodness sake, not machines. There is more to life as a human being than to perform tasks with as less of an effort as possible, whilst producing as much profit as possible. We are not merely producers of capital for the sustenance of markets. "Being practical," - the phrase reminds me of the woes of our contemporary world. So much thought and effort invested in short term goals; the rigid and stilted nature of modern science education (that isn't to say i have anything against science. Not at all. There just seems to be a great abyss present where literature once dwelt) and it's recent reverence in schools for its high market value, in line with modern educational institutions being human capital factories, rather than a place for people to develop great characters and intellect; and the dismissal of the deeper things concerning human existence as being a waste of time or, worst still, as being 'impractical', usually by people who have never experienced such deeper, more meaningful, things.
And in a world that is as bad and gloomy as you seem to believe it to be, such a world is especially in need of altrustic people. You can set an example; initate a trail of good deeds, with each coupled by reciprocity.
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That deeply affected me. Forget about practicality, can be good was something that went beyond practicality, something greater than simply surviving. Almost as long as I can remember I've always been determined to be one of the good guys and never ever devolve into something evil,
Ah, so you've already provided an answer to the first question of my previous reply. Perhaps i should have read ahead first.
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when I was to hold that there was no absolute morality, that was when the work was pulled out from under me and I've never had as much faith in my moral code since.
The phrase "Hitler's actions towards Jews was a bad thing" is an objective moral judgement, and if morality were all subjective, then there wouldn't be much value in stating it; and the only meaningful things would be to say "I disapprove of his actions". But then, we would have to put up with the idea that Hitler approved of his actions; and since morality is all subjective, there would simply be no conflict. But this is absurd. There must be some sense of objectivity in morality.
And what about terms such as 'right', 'wrong', 'good' and 'evil'? If morality were only a subjective judgement, won't our definitions of these terms differ from each person to another, and, therefore, we are bound to fail to understand one another when we communicate with them?
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other people's morality can only be as good as their level of civilisation.
Where on earth is this stated as a fact? What's your argument for this? There will always be a wide diversity of people in whichever civilisation you care to sift through.
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I consider our people to be on moral civilisation but I can't help but wonder if it's only because we have so much.
Why is this necessarily true? Is there no such thing as a bad person in this civilisation?
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These Somalians seem to prove that there is nothing people won't sink to the name of survival.
I hope you're not generalising your conception of a 'Somalian pirate' to the entire Somalian people. I'm sure there are Somalians that are actively attempting to end the activities of those pirates.
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But to be fair, everything I know about the Somalian situation comes from a South Park episode and before then I had never even heard of Somalia.
Ah...well... Now you know that you shouldn't watch too many South Park episodes...or that you should treat them as what they truely are: not just cartoons, but the kind that barely resembles reality...
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Also, a part of me is afraid. Afraid that sometime soon, some horrible catastrophe will strike our civilisation and I will see everyone around me turn into a monster, I don't believe I would and that these be feeling very isolated, like I'm on an alien planet. The difference being morality rather than species. We discussed my loneliness earlier, it is possible that part of the reason I don't seek people out is because I don't want to know people. People who could turn out to be beasts disguised as good people, a disguise that all is when things get tough.
What exactly are you trying to say here? That you're afraid people will, some day, transform into creatures that are not physically human?
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I don't seek out these negative examples of humanity. On the contrary I can't seem to go through daily life without being bombarded by them.
Something I noticed about fiction is that children's stories and films are very nice, the main characters are pillars of integrity, good guys always win and the right choices made without any confusion or regards to whether it's beneficial to the heros but grown up stories and films have much more darkness, it's full of grey areas and moral ambiguity, the heroes become corrupted by hardship, vengeance or greed. There is no end of negative criticism about humanity, I stopped reading the Artemis Fowl books because I couldn't take all the cynicism towards our species. Even in ordinary fiction there are constant digs against humanity. And if anything sweet and nice does come up its rejected by adults.
Throw away your dull, frivolous and juvenile contemporary literature. Explore, instead, the infinitely more passionate, beautiful and human literature of previous ages. I speak of the works of Chaucer, Milton, Pope, Shakespeare, Spenser, Paine, Emerson, Longfellow; the Bible and the literature from the Romantic Era; the speeches and writings of Churchill and Lincoln...
By god, the list is endless...
Add readings rich in philosophy and history, and then you should see why humanity is worth living for and dying for. It'll be within these works where you'll find your faith in humanity.
I simply cannot put it better than Samuel Smiles:
"I would not have any one here think that, because I have mentioned individuals who have raised themselves by self-education from poverty to social eminence, and even wealth, these are the chief marks to be aimed at. That would be a great fallacy. Knowledge is of itself one of the highest enjoyments. The ignorant man passes through the world dead to all pleasures, save those of the senses... Every human being has a great mission to perform, noble faculties to cultivate, a vast destiny to accomplish. He should have the means of education, and of exerting freely all the powers of his godlike nature."
Borrowed from the Wikipedia page about him. You should read his book entitled "Character".
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I can be positive Freudian, I just have difficulty believing that I should.
Keep working at it. Persevere, relentlessly, in trying to find the solutions and answers. |
Freudian
Preferred Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 318
Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:40 am
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I would also like to add, that whilst you spend your time mulling about these incidents, you should never lose your own individualism within those thoughts. It's bad enough that you generalise the actions of a minor few to large populations, who, very often, have absolutely nothing to do with those incidents; the last thing you'd want is to apply a similar assessment on yourself. Be careful in being aware of when you're doing this, and resist the urge of generalising the actions and behaviours to yourself, when the act of doing so does strike your attention.
You are an individual, a being capable of holding and forming unique opinions and ideas; an embodiment of a unique way of life. The moment you think of yourself as being defined by some group, possessing whatever traits and characteristics that this group represents in your mind, the change within yourself will only happen according to a change the group undergoes, which seems a great deal more difficult than bringing about a change within the individual, an entity in closer vicinity and very much more palpable.
Mould and enrich your unique and individual self to an image of your desire, and make sure you separate this process from the ways of those whom you disagree with. Distance yourself from their behaviours and actions, just as you should; as should be expected of you. Focus on what you must do for yourself. |
Freudian
Preferred Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 318
Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:36 pm
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The next time you find yourself absorbed into an incident that has happened in some other place, very far from where you live, or many years back in time, and moments from personalising these incidents, throw yourself backwards, away from the computer screen or the newspaper, and look around you. Pay attention to the life immediately before you - this is where you should be applying all your efforts. This is the area where you should, and are able to, encourage progress or change for the better. You need to first deal with this before venturing into the world outside of it. |
Tailspin
Junior Member
Joined: 11 Jul 2009
Posts: 62
Wed May 01, 2013 12:29 am
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The other day I was thinking about what had started me down this dark path.
As I mentioned, this all began when my writing teacher told us we should give up our black and white veiw on morrality in order to make our charicters more realistic,
That black and white veiw had been my north star, if there is no sutch thing as good, how can anyone be a good person?
I had awlways belived in good guys and bad guys, now I fear that they are all bad guys. At best, one side is the lesser of 2 evils. In WW2 the british are considered the good guys but they bombed german cvilians.
And this ties in with somthing else that depresses me, this idea that the winners write the history books. That good is determened soly by who wins out in a fight.
I see statues of soildiers when I'm in town and I wonder if there are people out there who would gladly tear them down.
I fear that no-one is good, there are only bad guys at all times, everyone has an agenda, no-one is free from corruption.
again, how can anyone be good if there is no good? |
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