Rule Out Anger, One Thing At A Time

Postby Leo Volont » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:41 am

Yes, if we could only establish a Huge All Encompassing General Principle for not getting Angry, well, that would take care of the whole problem at once. And, yes, deciding Not to get Angry, as a General Principle, does indeed help, but the Devil is in the Details and Life throws so many of those details at us, seemingly all at once, that it is difficult to keep in mind that we shouldn’t get Angry about This and That as it all flies at us.

So, it may be practical to take on Anger detail per detail – One Thing At a Time. For instance, in my community there is this adult of very diminished mental capacity, but he is physically large enough to seem quite dangerous to me, especially as he doesn’t seem to have much impulse control… so the guy make me nervous. Anyway on a number of occasions he was openly rude to me in public, and I did give him an opportunity to retract and apologize, but apparently every mental faculty of his is diminished but what accounts for his Pride. So I chose to ignore him – give him the Social ‘Cut’. But he would not take the hint, and it was aggravating me. Every encounter with him was something of a Trigger Event. Then I thought to myself, “Well, his Brain is definitely disordered, so what is it that I should reasonably expect of him? Well, Nothing! It is silly to hold him to any kind of Standard”. So I stopped ignoring him, and while it did not change any of the strange behaviors of this person toward me, it did a great deal of good in helping me ‘Chill Out’. It worked so well, I had to analyze what exactly happened. It seems I made a ‘Rule’ in regards to my behavior to this one bothersome individual (to be polite and none-judgemental whenever he approached me), and so in every subsequent situation, I did not have to agonize over thinking of what to do… just follow the Rule. It worked.

It seems I have done largely the same thing before, for instance, in regards to Traffic Anger. The Rule: “Don’t Let The Other Drivers Bother You”. So when I WAS still working, the one thing that never upset me was my Commutes back and forth to work. Even if Traffic Events did occur that would ordinarily really upset the ‘normal’ person, I seemed to be immune, because I would always remember my Rule – not to let any of it upset me. Oh, and what, you may ask, inspired such a Rule in regards to Traffic Issues? Well, I was able to reflect on my Long Life of Driving and realize that I had made most every mistake that typically annoys other drivers, mostly by not being as attentive as I should have been, but, yes, sometimes I did stupid or aggressive things intentionally, and most of the time the other drivers let it go. Now if they could be Cool with My Screw Ups then I could be Cool with their Screw Ups. Sometime or another I will have to dedicate a complete post to Driving Anger… but not this one.

Anyway, I am sure that any Chronically Angry Person could eliminate a number of regular ‘Trigger’ problems simply be deciding upon a “Rule” of behavior in just that specific kind of situation. Know what you will do already before it happens and just follow your Plan – as they say in the Factories, “Work to Rule”.
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#1

Postby aldinosaur » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:04 am

Hi Leo,

I just wanted to drop a note and thank you for your posts. I came to this forum for information on anger and your answers are really helpful. So thanks.
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#2

Postby proudconfidentman » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:21 pm

Awesome post! Thank you.
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#3

Postby popcorn123 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:19 pm

Hi Leo Volont,

Thank you for this great post! Reading your story about the individual who was openly rude to you in public brought back my experience of someone who was rude to me in a workplace setting (open plan office). However, he did have full mental capacity.

I was very angry at how he behaved, and how he did not think anything of being rude, especially considering it was in front of all our colleagues. The only thing is, he did seem embarassed when another colleague acted shocked at his behaviour. I managed to hold back any outburst of emotion, instead continuing as though it had not happened. He commended me for remaining professional, but as I walked away I could feel the burning embarassment and this also caused a lot of anger. I did what you said you did to that guy, I ignored him, gave him the "social cut" or cold shoulder I would say. This lasted for over a week, before I got the proper opportunity to speak to him alone. I had also needed the time to recover myself and ensure I was in the right state of mind to speak to him calmly. I had spent a lot of time crying and feeling depressed, which I expressed to family from whom I sought advice. Now, unfortunately, I was not entirely calm when I spoke to him. He started laughing about the incident when I mentioned it and that just triggered the anger. Through gritted teeth and with a clenched jaw I told him how I felt. He seemed to acknowledge it and from the look on his face it seemed any amusement was gone (he looked like he had been slapped after I was done talking). I left it at that and chose to forgive him. A week later, he brought it up again and mentioned how he was trying to not say anything rude and he tried to diminish how he had behaved by saying "it was just a joke". That drove the anger up again, but fortunately I was able to hold back and not respond angrily, though my anger was quite evident from my expression and the way I acted.

Anyway, that whole incident was almost a year ago, and I am no longer at that work place (it was just temporary), but I am still getting flash backs and with that the anger seems to bubble up all over again. I chose to forgive that person because I actually looked up to him as a mentor and even thought of him as friend. We kept in contact after I left - just the very occasional message, and I met with him once. But what seems to keep on ticking away at the back of my mind is that he never actually said "sorry" for being rude. You might say that his behaviour following the incident indicates that he regretted it, but the realist in me sees that he was most likely acting that way just to redeem himself and not get told off for work place bullying, if I were to have reported it as an incident (everyone kind of witnessed it so I can't say that it could be entirely hidden). Also, the other things he said during that time (he had been very negative towards me and super critical of what I did) added to the feeling that he hated me and of course, did heavy damage to my self-esteem. I am not sure how to let this go because it keeps on cropping back up, it just hits me at random times. Your suggestion of a rule is a good one, but what rule can I to apply to this situation? I still think highly of this person, and we seemed to become friends again, but the incident has made me very wary of whether or not to trust him. Even if I were to manage to entirely forgive, I cannot, and would be a fool to forget. But first things first, how can I achieve full forgiveness?

I hope you can help me break free of this because I feel like it is holding me back and causing a lot of negative emotions to continue circling within me...

TLDR: How can I completely forgive someone who publicly humiliated me and was rude to me but never actually apologised for it?
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#4

Postby Leo Volont » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:30 am

Hi Popcorn,

Sure, I think I can help you out with this problem. The Person who insulted you, let’s call him Mr. Powell, was a kind of a mentor, a friend almost, and you looked up to him. Yes, you have ‘forgiven him’ but the memory often recurs and it is a very unpleasant one. Well, we can take much of the bitterness out of the Memory by applying some perspective. First, Mr. Powell is kind of a Bull in the Social China Shop. He doesn’t know how to ‘read people’. He wasn’t just making an excuse when he said he was “joking around”. He meant it, and that means that he thought you were just one of the guys – just some regular ordinary lunk head. He mis-read you and played out a Situation that a more Discerning Person would have deftly steered around. “Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread”. When he later failed to give a full apology, well, this is also a matter of perspective. For all you know, THAT could have been the MOST he ever Apologized in his whole life. You know, a lot of people don’t have much practice at apologizing. There is even a School of Thought out there, shared by Millions, that “to Apologize is a sign of Weakness”, and as a matter of principle they will NEVER apologize for anything, ever. People can believe in strange things. One popular Sect a few hundred years ago believed that only God deserved Respect and so they made it a Point of Practice to NEVER Show Anybody Any Respect. They came off looking Mean and Hateful, but they thought they were being Religious. So it is with the Never Apologize People, who think they are Looking Strong, when they just look like Insensitive Boneheads. But People Believe what they Believe. It is like making accounts for a one-legged person, or somebody who stutters. You deal with their limitations as a given. And since you actually kind of like Mr. Powell, it should be easy to accommodate him here.

Also you should consider your own ideas of Self Importance. You know there is more than one reason why Humility has been a favoured Virtue down through time. Yes, in Tightly Packed Social Institutions like a Monastery, you would inculcate Humility simply because it would make your job easier for every one of the Monks who believed you and stopped elbowing everyone else for room. But, there is also a Peace of Mind that comes from releasing that Huge Pressure of Pride that Pushes us to Expect Greatness in ourselves and the Respect and Deference from Everybody in our Social Orbit. Young People especially are often consumed by Pride, and Vanity (a minor character in one of Jane Austen’s books said “Pride relates more to our opinion of ourselves, vanity to what we would have others think of us”.) We all want to conquer the world when we are young, but that is soon enough beaten out of us by the School of Hard Knocks. But if you can give advice to any young man, or women, and they would listen to it, it would be to take off the Burden of Pride and throw it away. Pride makes us Slaves to impossible expectations. That reminds me of a Spiritual Dream I had decades ago. I was down before some Celestial Divine Being who told me “To Be My Own Master I Must Be My Own Slave”. At first, for about 20 years, I thought I knew what that meant. But it turned out to be one of those “Greek Oracles” that you can’t read right until you turn them around and view them from another angle. High Expectations Make You a Slave. Yes, it would be Good to Achieve High Accomplishments, BUT, Do you REALLY want to be a Slave? Finally I decided that My Expectations and my Physical Will and Capacities would have to reach an Accommodation. I would do as Much as I could without killing myself doing it.

You might also decide to back off a bit on yourself.

Then there are Listening and Empathy Skills that you can begin to practice. As a young man I would be in conversations and spend all my time and attention thinking on what I was going to say. This of course interferes with the ability to fully listen to what is being said. So learn to listen and have faith that when the time to speak comes, you will think of something then. Once you learn how to start listening, it is not a much greater step to observing people in order to discern how they must be feeling – what kind of a mood they are in. You can begin to learn how to ‘Read People’, what Mr. Powell should have learned but never did. You see, by placing More Attention on Others, you leave Less Attention for Yourself. I’ve notice it in my Interaction with Others. I am so Busy Observing and Evaluating THEM, that it hardly registers that they may be insulting me. My concern is “where did THAT come from?”

Anyway, I better get some dinner. I enjoyed speaking with you Popcorn…. Oh! Popcorn made me Hungry! Ha!
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#5

Postby popcorn123 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:11 pm

Hi Leo,

Thank you so much for your reply! It has really helped me re-evaluate the situation.

Well, we can take much of the bitterness out of the Memory by applying some perspective. First, Mr. Powell is kind of a Bull in the Social China Shop. He doesn’t know how to ‘read people’. He wasn’t just making an excuse when he said he was “joking around”. He meant it ...


I had considered the possibility that "Mr Powell" (this made me laugh so much!!) had truly been "just joking". I had told the whole story to my family and sought advice, including my brother, who I think has a somewhat similar character - though maybe my brother is better at reading people (some people may say that comes with having sisters...). It was just the other things he said around this incident and the way he acted towards me that made me think he was just plain horrible. But I have to admit that he perhaps had reasons for this - I was never confident in myself, did not demonstrate any great ability and perhaps a few mistakes I made along the way did not help my position. However, I still stand by the fact that his behaviour was not justified and cannot be justified in any situation.

He mis-read you and played out a Situation that a more Discerning Person would have deftly steered around. “Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread”. When he later failed to give a full apology, well, this is also a matter of perspective. For all you know, THAT could have been the MOST he ever Apologized in his whole life.


Perhaps he is one who finds it difficult to read others. I remember that during my moment of 'heated' explanation, he said something like "it must be hard for you to say this". I told him the truth directly, when I said "If it was anyone else, I would probably have called them an a*****e and then left it at that, but I value you as a person...". His reaction was quite severe, his face looked so stricken. Perhaps my words were quite strong, but I felt like it had needed to be said (actually was inspired by my sister...) and I do not regret it. I felt bad to see that look on his face, but I said what I needed to. And I did think that there was regret somewhere there. You're right, I have no idea how he apologises. Maybe saying the word "sorry" is actually quite alien to him. Instead I should judge him on his actions, and I could actually see that he was trying to redeem himself afterwards. And I shouldn't think badly of others and expect that his motives were just for himself.

But if you can give advice to any young man, or women, and they would listen to it, it would be to take off the Burden of Pride and throw it away. Pride makes us Slaves to impossible expectations. That reminds me of a Spiritual Dream I had decades ago. I was down before some Celestial Divine Being who told me “To Be My Own Master I Must Be My Own Slave”.... You might also decide to back off a bit on yourself.


Oh yes, I do not think highly of pride. Arrogant people is actually one of my pet peeves... I always endeavour to minimise hubris. Thank you for the reminder! I wish I could always have such interesting dreams like yours! Mine are only interesting on the odd occasion, and I can never make heads or tails of them (side note, though this is just for interest as it came to mind just now - I have had dreams with "Mr Powell" in them a few times since I left...). I will also try to re-evaluate my strengths and not be too harsh on myself (is that what you meant when you said "back off a bit" from myself?) I am trying to develop more positive thinking and reduce the 'negative self-talk' as they call it...

Then there are Listening and Empathy Skills that you can begin to practice... You can begin to learn how to ‘Read People’, what Mr. Powell should have learned but never did. You see, by placing More Attention on Others, you leave Less Attention for Yourself.


That is another thing I am also trying to work on. I actually find (and have been told by family) that I sometimes read too much into what people say/do. I over-analyse sometimes, but I would love to develop the skill of being able to read people well and then being able to respond immediately in the best manner. And yes, then I could also learn how to develop myself, so that what I portray to others is not worth insulting and I can be confident to not accept negativity towards me.

Anyway, I better get some dinner. I enjoyed speaking with you Popcorn…. Oh! Popcorn made me Hungry! Ha!


Thank you again for your reply! Haha, sorry that I have made you a bit hungry. My username is just the first thing that popped into my head (excuse the pun!), and which had not already been taken!
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#6

Postby Leo Volont » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:00 am

Hi Popcorn,

Oh, about dreams. In an Old Man’s Lifetime I only have a handful of such Really Big Dreams. But, more importantly, the TRICK I found to Dreaming is NOT to focus on what they MEAN, but to See Them as Arenas for Practicing your Behavior. So when you Wake Up in the Morning, do not try to figure out What any of it Meant, but think about whether or not you would Change any of your Behavior in any way. In my dreams, over the years, I have become quite a Gentleman! And I believe that is the Point. Whatever Higher Power puts these Dreams Together has Some Reason, don’t you think? The Reason is to Give Us Life Practice. Indeed, People who NEVER take Advantage of this, who attribute their Horrible Dream Behavior as just Something that Happened in a Dream, well, there Dreams begin to effectively Ignore them. The Dreams Quit Trying. BUT if you begin to Work with your Dreams and actively Evaluate your Behavior and make Mental Suggestions to Do It Right in the Next Dream, well, you will Notice a Big Improvement in the Quality and Coherency of your Dreams. If you make the Effort, so will your Dreams. Oh, but realize that Dreams are a Creative Process at some level. You can Suggest a certain Motif for your Dreams, but don’t expect “over night” results. I think it takes about 2 Weeks for your Dream Mind to respond to Suggestion and put together a Dream that may apply to your Motif. Then you need to Remember that your Higher Dream Mind is a lot smarter than you are, and so you might have trouble recognizing the Dream you asked for. But you will Know it because it will Somehow Lead You to the Same End. Oh, I mentioned Samuel Johnson in our other Thread. I can mention him here also. He was known as the Philosopher of London, back in the Reign of George VI. He was a great Writer and a famous Talker. Well, he once explained that he had a dream in which he was at the table of 4 very well spoken and educated men, and that each of them spoke so Intelligently that he felt like an Idiot being in the same room. Then he awoke and Wondered Where Such a Dream Could Come From. How could His Own Mind Create such intelligence? I have the same experience when Dream Characters start to recite Poetry or play Original Songs. I only wish my Conscious Mind could tap into those Skill Sets.

Oh, about your Mixed Feeling toward Mr. Powell. I am an old man and I have memories of several Nemesis Characters who have played roles in my Life. After a while they just become part of your Life Story. The Emotions are no longer provoked, and it is like you see it at a Distance… from the Hilltop over the Valley of your Life.

Oh, this is true even of Acts which we greatly regret. One would be expected to be miserable forever in anguished contrition over some Mis-deed, but after decades of moral reform and even atonement toward the Universe, one feels that One is No Longer the Same Person. They say that the Body totally Replaces Itself every Seven Years. So after Seven Years, the Person who did some Misdeed, well, is GONE. Especially if you had the Moral Sense to Repent, Learn, and Change. I tell the People on the Anger Forum that to Rid themselves of Anger, they have to essentially Change who they ARE. They have to go from Being an Angry Person to being a Civil and Congenial Person. They may have to go Deeper than just Anger. One Thing Leads to Another and Soon the Change in Ourselves becomes Sweeping and Fundamental.
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#7

Postby popcorn123 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:05 pm

Hi Leo,

Oh, about dreams. In an Old Man’s Lifetime I only have a handful of such Really Big Dreams. But, more importantly, the TRICK I found to Dreaming is NOT to focus on what they MEAN, but to See Them as Arenas for Practicing your Behavior. So when you Wake Up in the Morning, do not try to figure out What any of it Meant, but think about whether or not you would Change any of your Behavior in any way.


I'm really glad you said this! This is exactly what I think. There can be wisdom in dreams and sometimes they can help us make decisions about what to do in life or how to act. Some people think it is all bogus, that dreams mean nothing. I do think that some dreams mean nothing, they are just the subconcious thoughts and ideas filtering through while we sleep and our brains recover from the day. However, some dreams have some significance. One of the dreams I had about "Mr Powell", was before I met up with him (I think), and without going into detail, I was in part trying to avoid him but he jumped over to speak to me. That was maybe a dream with foresight - he reached out to me and that was how we were in contact again. There was another dream which I am so very sure holds great significance. I had it several months ago now, and again without all the details (it was very long and detailed - quite vivid too), it was about a journey, trying to escape from a dark tunnel. There was one friend with me and one figure - that figure was a person in the dream but without a face or gender, therefore I just knew they must represent something abstract. At the end, I was so sure they were going to betray me - I sent my friend through the exit first with the provisions (I was worried the figure would steal them) and that was the end of the dream. I have no idea if the figure betrayed me and left me stuck in that place or if I made it out. That whole dream seemed like it was warning me of something and I had to choose my path, but this is where the problem is. I am not a dream interpreter so I don't know what exactly it means. I could guess but I wouldn't know for sure. In order for me to know how to act or what to do based on the wisdom from the dream, surely I need to know what it means and what the different aspects represent? I had wanted to ask a teacher what it all meant, someone I know would have a better idea than me. He is also someone whom I trust, because it is important who you go to as people can make things up, may not have been taught the right things, or even have bad intentions. This is why we are always warned not to share too much about our dreams, good or bad, as people can become jealous. Anyway, this is why I said I can't make heads or tails of my dreams - I still don't know what that dream meant and what to do about it. Perhaps I should go speak to my teacher, rather than be stuck wondering. Wouldn't you have liked someone to tell you immediately what your dream meant rather than spending years thinking you knew?

Oh, about your Mixed Feeling toward Mr. Powell.


I still do genuinely look up to him, and have a great deal of respect for him. I was perhaps wary about forgiving him entirely because I was worried he hated me. But based on your advice, it does seem probable that he was just joking, though I know the jokes stemmed from somewhere. I think it would be so much easier if I disliked him. But it is always harder when you actually care about someone - it hurts so much more. He isn't a bad person, and for that reason I feel better - I can feel myself letting go of the past. But you are right - we learn from the past and from all our experiences and interactions with people.

They say that the Body totally Replaces Itself every Seven Years. So after Seven Years, the Person who did some Misdeed, well, is GONE. Especially if you had the Moral Sense to Repent, Learn, and Change. I tell the People on the Anger Forum that to Rid themselves of Anger, they have to essentially Change who they ARE.


I did not know about the seven year thing. Perhaps that may be true, but the way I thought of it is that our minds are continually changing. So I would not have put such a rigid time frame on it. Side point - I have heard that the human skin is regenerated in it's entirety over seven or eight years, as in skin cells that have died regrow - so maybe it came from that? Anyhow, yes, seeking repentance, learning and then actively changing oneself is the way to go. I am trying, but it is always a struggle...

Thank you for your advice. :)
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#8

Postby Leo Volont » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:33 am

Dear Popcorn

Well, you seemed to have just blown off my Theory of Dreams without much Discussion, other then you believe what everybody else, who never seriously thought about it, believes.

For instance, your dream of the tunnel. You look for Meaning in What Did Happen. But the Meaning Consists in how you Reacted, what you Thoughts and Suspicions were. Also, that you were in a dark tunnel to begin with. You should wonder why you were so suspicious. Why did you believed you were being betrayed. Do you Like and Admire the Person you were in This Dream? If you saw your Dream Character in a Movie, would you admire that Character?

You need to Evaluate Dreams on What You Should Have Done, and Not What You DID.

Your Personality Will Never Get Any Better if you allow it to Just Drift at the Same Level. I believe you are throwing your dreams away.
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#9

Postby popcorn123 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:24 pm

Dear Leo,

I'm sorry! Please do not be mad. From my perspective I had not "blown off' your theory. I had thought about it and then just went on to explain a couple of dreams that I had. I thought I had duly acknowledged your theory.

In reference to the shared dream you described and your idea of the "collective consciousness", I had simply said that I do not know whether this is true or not. I ponder over your theory, just as I would with any new idea that was presented to me. It is a very interesting idea.

With my dream - I was actually not trying just to look for meaning in what happened! I said that I wanted to understand what the different aspects represented so that it could perhaps shed some light on my feelings and I may understand the actions in the dream - both of mine and of others - and then I may be able to decide what to do, perhaps in the next dream, but more importantly in real life. I was trying to do exactly what you suggest - understand why I was so suspicious of the 'figure' and why did I think they had betrayed me in the past? What had they betrayed me over? I think this was the key part of the dream. I need to know what they represent so that I can know how to make the right decisions in life. It seemed to be warning me that if I let that same thing betray me then I will be stuck forever in the dark. The dream did end at the pivotal moment - before escaping or being trapped forever, and I do not know what I would have done.

Interesting that you should ask me about what I thought of my own character in the dream. No, I cannot say that I admired my character. If it were to be a movie, it would probably be one of those typical horror films with a scaredy protagonist. I wish I had been able to just blast my way out of there and fly out in a blaze of light! That would have been fun... But anyway, I admit that in the dream I was just going with the flow. I can only start to be more active in dreams when I am in the lighter stages of sleep - my thoughts start to filter through - but that is when I am just having very light dreams, the standard hazy ones that just come and go. Not the real, deep ones. I cannot control any of the other aspects - the other characters and what happens around me, and usually I am just my own self with my own personality. Doesn't it make sense to know what the other aspects mean to know how to react to them? Because I do not know if I did what I "should have" done...

If you don't mind I am also going to bring up the story of Joseph here as it holds some relevance. He was a dream interpreter and he was able to hear the accounts of people's dreams and tell them what the aspects meant, hence how they applied to real life. Remember his interpretation of the King's dream - the seven fat cows eaten by the seven thin cows represented seven years of good harvest followed by seven years of bad. He explained this and so they knew what action to take. This is simply what I would like - an interpretation of the different aspects and their meaning. Only then can I know what to do and how to improve my personality...
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#10

Postby Leo Volont » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:22 am

Dear M. Popcorn, or Mme Popcorn (you never really said you write so androgynously)

I am a Fixture of an Anger Management Forum and now you accuse me of Getting Mad. You are full of tricks, aren't you? I suppose everybody who gets exasperated with you gets accused by you of being somehow emotionally irrational, that nobody could ever have a perfectly good and valid reason for sitting you down and giving you a Lecture, a Strong Talking to. I guess I am beginning to understand Mr. Powell better. What IF he was completely within Bounds and it is only your Perception of Events that make you think he was being abusive -- abusive because you never did like being 'talked down to' by the Adults. I suppose you must be a proud little Lucifer.

Any I was indeed exasperated that I put a lot of time into writing to you (but I was not throwing furniture or pounding me fists), and apparently you go through it all with a quick glance, to rush on to telling me what you think. You need to think these things through better. First, before telling me what You Think, and arguing for it, you must wonder whether Your View is not the Ordinary View with which I am already Familiar and rejected long ago for cause. With this in mind you should confine yourself to asking why you are wrong, and not trying to convince me that you are right. Butl, what if you think I am Wrong. Well, that only means you have not sufficiently thought through what I am telling you. If you want to know and understand What I think, you should pay attention to it. Frankly, I've Measured your Level and don't honestly think there is Anything you might tell me. But, you are young and show a bit of promise, and so I do not think it would be impossible for you to Better Yourself if you apply yourself, and so I am sharing my Time with you. But you apparently need to be Instructed in Not Wasting Time in hearing the Sound of your own Voice.

Now, back to your Dream. I talked about how you would see yourself in a Movie. You then you agilely turn it into a Horror Movie in order to Justify your Behavior. Well, it Wasn't. It was a happy-go-lucky Romantic Comedy, with all the Main Stars out in the Sunlight, and in the background was the mouth of this Hole in the Ground and inside it was this craven coward too afraid to come out.

Anyway, to go over it again, You must not get stuck on What anything in a Dream Means, What things Represent. You wouldn't in Real Life, so why get stuck on wondering What a Chair Means in a dream (its something to sit on, or for careless men to lay their Hats upon). Now, about the Story of Joseph. Again this shows you are Not Listening to me. The Jews did not have the First Five Books of the Bible until AFTER Babylon, which means that they Compiled these Books from Babylonnian, or more probably Persian/Zoroastrian Sources (as the World was then quite Cosmopolitan, and everybody knew everybody else' s Stories, if only for Entertainment Value). So your Story of Joseph is like quoting a Story from 1001 Arabian Nights. Its only a Story. It Never Really Happened. Indeed, the Jews only Superimposed Egypt in their Version of the Story (Egypt has a written History and so we know of no slave revolts that went along those lines). Oh, if you want some Actually Scholarly Info, The Real Promised Land was the Kashmir. There was a book written a number of years ago which compared the Place Name to actual Places on the Map and they found that the Place names in the Torah have no correspondence to anywhere in the Near East, but the Kashmir is dotted with them. Also, Census Data from about 2000 years ago (Buddhist Empire was Efficient and Thorough about things like that) show that Every Third Child in Kashmir was named MOSES. And they have Semitic Features. Apparently the Jews had picked up on Legendary Stories of this Semitic People in the Kashmir who struggled against Some Empire or another (there was a Civilization in India that predated Modern History and all we know of it is from its ruins). So, given the Kashmiri Context, the Story of Joseph may be rooted in a Legend that has more value than a mere Story, BUT the Idea of Interpreting Dreams -- what the Furniture Means, is the Most Common Mode of thinking about Dreams by the most ordinary People. So that would be what a Story Teller would use, wouldn't it? Most People never get much beyond being a Still and Silent Witness to their Dreams. they are not active Characters even in their own Dreams. They Watch their Dreams like they are Movies. I tell them they can Choose how to Act, and they are surprised that they are able to Act at all. People who Do Nothing in a Dream of course will Fixate on What Everything Else must have Meant.

Now, yes, you were Terrified of being Hurt in this Dream... you call it Betrayed, and now I wonder what you meant... that if you went outside the tunnel, somebody might say something embarrassing? However, lets suppose you were afraid of Physical Harm. Well, have you Ever Received Any Lasting Injury in a Dream? No. If you would treat dreams Seriously then you would eventually Get To a particular Dream Motif -- where you are being Chased by Something Terrible and you are Afraid for your Life. these dreams started happening for me and I began to wonder whether Running Away was really what I SHOULD Be Doing, or whether I should Turn Around and Fight, or Whatever. So the next Dream I had, I Turned Around. It was the Guard with the Mirror Sunglasses from the movie "Cool Hand Luke" and he told me he was going to shoot me with that Hunting Rifle he had. I said, "Okay, but I don't want to watch" and so I turned around my back to him. BLAM! The shot knocked me over on my face and I lay there in the dust. He came up and gave me a bit of a kick in the side and said "Yeap, he's dead alright", and walked on (probably going after some friends of mine that had been running with me when I stopped). So, I was dead, and so I laid there being dead for about 30 seconds when I got wrestles and so I got up. I saw a nearby Petrol Station with a Rest Room and so I went over and inside and saw a mirror on the wall. I had left the door open and so when I looked in the Mirror and opened my Mouth, I saw Sunlight coming through. the whole back of my head had been blown off. So I said "Yeap, I'm Dead Alright". THAT is when it occurred to me that I was not DEAD and from THAT I concluded that you can't get Killed in Dreams, and THEREFORE it is Silly to have Fear In Dreams. There Is Nothing to be Afraid Of. And you should know that Your Own Personal Dream Mind Remembers these things. It is Not the Same as Lucid Dreaming (knowing consciously that you are dreaming when you are dreaming), it is simply a Fact about Dreaming, that the Dream Self gains Dream Experience and doesn't forget it from night to night. For the next three night I was Killed in my Dreams and walked away from it. I was Hit by a Train and I was still okay. In another dream a team of Radical Feminists attacked the building I was in. there was a big structural pillar between myself and them, and so when I saw one with a machine gun and one with a carbine, I ducked behind the pillar to shield from the Machine Gun but I left myself open to the carbine. Well, Carbine Girl Opened Up! POW POW POW POW POW I had made a kind of a spinning twirling motion to get behind the pillar (you see, I am also a Dancer), and so all the bullets hit me in the back. Again I did not die.

From the Dream Realization that you "Immortal", you can advance to Learning to Fly, to Levitate. To learn how to Fly in a Dream you simply Jump Off of Something Very High, and you can't do that if you are afraid of Dying. The Ability to Fly in a Dream is not so much important in Itself as just the mere Ability. For instance, you might be in a Room with a dozen other Dream Characters. Well, who are the Important Ones? If you Levitate off the Ground, if anybody else is a Serious Dream Character, they will levitate too. Hmmmmm, the other night I had a Dream in which suddenly Schools were popping up Everywhere teaching people how to Fly and Levitate. and there I was Drifting along the Ceilings. people took me for an Advanced Student! I insisted I've been doing it for years. But perhaps this is an Indication that the Collective Consciousness is finally trying to catch up with me.

So, anyway, you need to work on being Fearless in your Dreams. you need fearlessness. You come across as much too fussy and afraid of Life.
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#11

Postby popcorn123 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:22 pm

Dear Mr Volont,

I would like to begin by apologising for making the comment of "please do not be mad". It was more of a joke than anything else, because I found it amusing to say seeing as we are in an anger management forum. I suppose I can be 'diabolical' at times, but only in jest, with those whom I get along with. But with hindsight, I can see that this was not necessary and I have now learnt that I should only remain courteous. I am sorry I offended you.

Despite all of that, I do not think that what I said warranted such a severe reaction from yourself. You need only have directly said to me either that you are not mad, or that you are irritated, but being a respectable individual on this anger management forum you did not become angry. This would have been sufficient for me to understand. But I accept that you voiced your exasperation and also accept your judgement that, after measuring my "level", I have nothing to say that you can learn anything from.

However, what I cannot accept is the manner in which you decided to make a vicious attack with a low blow. You decided to take the personal incident that I shared with you seeking advice, and without knowing the full context of the incident, you threw it right back at my face. I did not expect that sort of behaviour from you at all. That is actually quite hurtful, and dare I say it - oh yes I do dare! - it made me a little bit angry. Well let me just tell you that "Mr Powell" was not "giving me a lecture", he just made a rude comment. And it was more than this, he did it openly, which meant that I was publicly humiliated, and he did not think anything of it. In fact, I find that I can actually be quite receptive to learning from others, but only if they speak to me in a respectful manner - without any nasty comments slung around. I even told this to "Mr Powell" - I said that I am open to constructive criticism.

The sad thing is that I happily came to read your reply but when I opened the thread, your post seemed to explode in my face! But because you have been civil thus far, I will forgive this incident and hope that we can move on from it.

With this in mind you should confine yourself to asking why you are wrong, and not trying to convince me that you are right. Butl, what if you think I am Wrong.


I did not come to this forum, or even begin this discussion, in the hopes that I could go around and say who is 'right' or 'wrong'. And I did not expect to be told this either. I was thinking that we would just have an open discussion with different views voiced here so that perhaps we could learn something from it - I would say the same for our other discussion on the other thread - but I now understand that you do not believe you will learn anything from me, so I will stop voicing my ideas. Thank you for your instruction in "not wasting time in hearing the sound of my own voice".

Anyway, to go over it again, You must not get stuck on What anything in a Dream Means, What things Represent. You wouldn't in Real Life, so why get stuck on wondering What a Chair Means in a dream (its something to sit on, or for careless men to lay their Hats upon). Now, about the Story of Joseph. Again this shows you are Not Listening to me. The Jews did not have the First Five Books of the Bible until AFTER Babylon,


About the story of Joseph - I was not referring to the Jewish scriptures or the Bible, so that is irrelevant - but it doesn't matter anyway because you do not believe it, so we'll move away from it. Now this is where I am quite confused, because in your previous post you said that I should focus on what I was doing and why - my actions - and also even on why I was in a tunnel in the first place. That contradicts with what you are now saying, because we shouldn't "get stuck on what anything in a dream means". Surely understanding the tunnel comes with understanding what it represents? No, I know we do not do that in real life, but real life and dreams are completely different. I think that [DISCLAIMER: This is just my opinion - I am not saying everyone should think the same] dreams can relate to real life, as in they can demonstrate something to us or provide wisdom or foresight, but often in an abstract way. I personally want to know if my dream relates to real life, but if you do not think that this is possible or the correct thing to do, that is your own opinion to which you are entitled. Please allow me to have mine.

Now, yes, you were Terrified of being Hurt in this Dream... you call it Betrayed, and now I wonder what you meant... that if you went outside the tunnel, somebody might say something embarrassing? However, lets suppose you were afraid of Physical Harm.


When I said I felt like I was going to be betrayed, it was because I didn't trust that additional 'figure'. Whoever or whatever they were they had betrayed me in the past (I just knew this when I was in the dream) and I was worried that if I let them go into the exit before me they would lock it or something and I would be stuck there, unable to escape. I had let my friend go first with the provisions, so that the 'figure' would not get a chance to steal them. That was what I was afraid of in the dream - being trapped in that place. Nothing more, there was no indication of what was beyond the exit - it centred around just the journey through the tunnel. This is why I believe the dream had some significance. Also, personally I find that vivid dreams are more than just images, they are also packed with emotions - like 4D movies, where the extra dimension is for feelings. Everything that I did there, considering what I saw there and what happenend, and considering I had no extra information, was the correct thing to do. I cannot fault my actions. But if I were to suddenly find out that my friend was really the one not to be trusted - plot twist! - I would know that I should not have let her go first. Anyway, that was most definitely a one-off dream, as far as I can tell, so I do not think there will be any going back to 'do things differently'.

From the Dream Realization that you "Immortal", you can advance to Learning to Fly, to Levitate. To learn how to Fly in a Dream you simply Jump Off of Something Very High, and you can't do that if you are afraid of Dying....So, anyway, you need to work on being Fearless in your Dreams. you need fearlessness. You come across as much too fussy and afraid of Life.


Reading what you said about learning to fly reminded me of The Matrix (have you seen that film?), where Neo, the main character is being taught how to fly by his mentor. I find that very interesting and would love to try it sometime, if I can get into the dream state where I still have control. I also really must try the 'fight back' idea if I have another dream where I am running away from something/someone - I have had many of those. Haha, you may perhaps be right when you say I seem "fussy and afraid of life". I have admitted to having a lack of confidence. I will continue to try and improve on this.

Thank you for your insight.
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#12

Postby Leo Volont » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:50 am

Dear Popcorn,

Look what you do. You apologize, and the take it back and tell me how much I overreacted to what you confess was you senseless and inappropriate, you even admit that it was Demonic, levity.

As in our other Post, I am tired of this Back and Forth with somebody with a fraction of my Reading, Synthesized Intellect and both Chronological and Quantitative Experience of Life. When you get Older and Better Educated you will realize how silly it was to try to Lecture me.

I have only one last this to say to you. Where can I go to have a drink with Mr. Powell?.
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#13

Postby popcorn123 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:35 pm

Dear Leo,

Please understand that when I say I was "diabolical", I was referring to the way I was almost teasing, in a friendly manner, not in a mean-spirited way. This was inspired by the fact that you called me a "proud little Lucifer", and I was acknowledging the fact that I found my little statement amusing. As I said, I realise I should not have been so jovial. I suppose it is difficult to understand someone's intentions and the meaning behind someone's words over the internet. But it was clear what you meant when you used my own experience against me - that was a mean thing to do, and you did not even know the whole context. If you did not have bad intentions when you made your comments, you would have apologised, just as I did when I acknowledged my mistake, because I meant nothing by it. I do not intend to be mean, not to you, nor to anyone.

And with regards to "lecturing", I emphasised that I gave my own opinions in the other thread, and yes I now fully understand that you did not want to hear any of it. You were only expecting someone to listen and agree with what you say. I am sorry from my side, that I shared more of my thoughts than you cared to hear. But this is where you should consider that other people have different opinions and you should allow that - not expect everyone to simply agree with you and accuse people of being "wrong" when they don't.

Anyway, I have no ill feelings towards you. I greatly appreciate your time and thank you for the knowledge you have shared and the insights you have provided. I actually enjoyed our conversations. Your wisdom is much appreciated, by myself and by others. I did after all only end up in this forum because I came across your post...

Very best wishes,

Popcorn
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