I don't know where else to post this. TRIGGER.

Postby dlr87 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:58 pm

I don't know where else to post this but I need to get it out, maybe someone can understand and talk to me. I apologise if it's long, feel free to skip to the end, I'm giving a bit of background so it makes more sense.

2006 - Met my husband Dave. Age 19. I found him to be quite emotionally immature, in the sense that he couldn't handle arguments and would sulk like a child. However I adored him from day one. Within 6 months we were living together and engaged. I suffer with OCD and anxiety (didn't realise at this point) and would obsess and interrogate him over trivial things, it drove him mad. He retaliated with violence. He was violent at most arguments, either as a result of my interrogation or just any argument really. The violence wasn't that bad, it was more shoving me around, throwing drinks at me, kicking me. I would always beg him to sort things out. He was insecure about me loving him. There was an incident where we argued and he got out of the car, sat in the middle of a 70mph road facing away from traffic. I don't know if he had been drinking, can't remember. Other than that, nothing indicated poor mental health. We started trying for a baby and I had several losses which he blamed himself for (he passed an infection to me which may or may not have been the cause). We got married 2008. Violence stopped towards me but he would occasionally be violent to the house (punching holes in walls etc).

First child born late 2009. From then until 2014 apart from the odd bit of violence to the house, we had relatively stable happy years. Normal arguments, and the occasional flare up of my OCD where I'd put him through hell, but relatively happy normal marriage. I wanted another baby, he did not but he agreed to keep me happy.

2015 second child born and all hell broke loose. A few months after her birth, he met his best friend. (Prior to this, he had no real friends, we were obsessed with each other). All of a sudden he starts going out drinking, coming home drunk at 3.30am. It caused arguments as I felt he was reliving his youth (his friend Dan was younger, single, no kids). He started going for a drink after work, started drinking more at home. This is a man who very rarely drank, all of a sudden regularly drinking. I thought he had an alcohol problem and I became over-sensitive whenever he had even one drink. To be fair he could be nasty after even one drink and I didn't like it. I resented the fact he did nothing with the children. He worked full time (I didn't work) but he did nothing with the kids, no baths, nothing, didn't even play with them very often. We had a lot of arguments. He'd tell me there was no point going out unless he could stay til the bar shut and get drunk.

Late 2015 he discovered some debt I'd hidden from him. The money didn't bother him (it was only spent on bills etc) but the HUGE lies I'd told to cover it up did. He smashed up the house, he was so angry, he literally smashed it to pieces! The neighbours called the police who told him to stay away for the night. He came back and we managed to sort things out, we were close to divorce but he agreed to forgive me.

2016 was difficult. Many months we were together and happy. Some months we were split up but living together. There was arguments when he discovered more debt (which I thought he knew about) and him going out. He agreed to give up his nights out, we even tried date nights - but they all ended badly as he wanted to drink and was nasty after a drink. We were both emotionally abusive to each other. I admit at times I was horrible to him, excluding him from family outings when we were split (but living together), being spiteful etc. We managed to work things out and ended 2016 happy. However many months the 7 year old played up dramatically at bedtime, refusing to let me leave the room, screaming if I tried. If Dave went to her, she'd scream he was hurting her as she knew he'd leave to avoid being reported by the neighbours. I was very sleep deprived.

Jan 2017 was when things went irreversibly wrong. I told him I wanted a divorce due to his drinking, him not doing anything with me or the kids. He felt I was leaving him because he went out with his friend "once" (obviously way more than once but he wouldn't admit it). We were selling the house as life was unbearable there (he wouldn't let me talk to the neighbours because they'd called the police on him, so every time I went out I'd have to make sure I avoided them, it was horrible). He blamed me for him smashing up the house, said it was my fault for lying to him, and the neighbour's fault for calling the police. One day he completely shut down and wouldn't even look at the kids. I then found an order for a gas mask. I confronted him. He said it was to inhale nitrogen as this would kill him. He said he'd researched the most painless, guaranteed, quick way to die. He said it was because I was mental. I asked if he'd thought about how it'd affect the kids, he said yes, that they'd be better off without him and would get over it. He said him shutting down was to distance himself from them to make suicide easier, and that it'd worked. I told him I loved him, he said "finally!" because I'd spent ages talking about how it'd affect the kids. He agreed not to do it, cancelled the order.

3 weeks later, on my 30th birthday, we'd argued, I then found an email - he was trying to purchase a gas mask from a shop and pay cash. I confronted him and he was furious I'd checked his emails.

Feb 2017 - we had a huge argument, he reported me to the police for fraud about the debt. He was aggressive, pushed past me, so I called the police, who told him to go away for the night and calm down. I left, went to a women's refuge. Took all my stuff and the kids. I was gone for a week. During that week he calmed down, started asking to see the kids. I refused, told him he'd have to see them supervised. I then relented and brought them to see him at a restaurant. He was teary, I'd NEVER seen him like that before, begging for me back, telling me he'd do anything to fix it. I came home. He was the happiest I'd ever seen him! He said when I'd gone he cried, he'd tried to keep himself busy but was really depressed, felt sick all the time, etc. I asked him why he ignored me asking if he was suicidal, he said he hadn't decided yet.

March-April we were fine, moved house, everything good. End of April we had an argument as my sister was visiting (he didn't like her, didn't like anyone being home when he got home) and I assumed he'd had a drink. We started to argue he stormed off, I heard him on the phone saying "please come quick as I fear for my kids". I assumed he was talking to the police. I brought my kids downstairs (they'd just gone to bed, I'd forgotten the youngest's medicine, the eldest asked to come too). I told the eldest (she was 7) that daddy had called the police so not to panic (she was scared of them after they came last time) and that they'd sort things out. She became hysterical, terrified I'd be taken away, I was trying to comfort her when Dave stormed in, videoing us, telling me I was sick and evil for calling the police and using the kids, upsetting them on purpose. He left the house. Turns out his call was FAKE. But he then later called them for real! They came round, told me he'd told them I had called making up stories about him to have him arrested. I hadn't called, hadn't said I did. The police left. I told Dave to stay away. He came home for our 2 year old's party the next day and I made it clear he had to leave after. He then overheard me on the phone to my best friend asking if she was coming, and if she was bringing her partner. He came downstairs, announced to the room he had to leave as I'd "arranged for him to be beaten up in front of the kids" and then left.

He was gone for 13 days, during that time we argued via email which was normal. He went from demanding all his clothes to telling me to burn them as he "wouldn't be needing them" and that I had "made his mind up for him". He asked to see the kids, I refused unless supervised, but relented on the 13th day and let him see them at home. That night we agreed he should come home, and he did. He later told me he'd given me a few days to calm down (!) then had rented his own place as it was cheaper than hotels. He gave up his rental.

June we argued a lot. First week of July we went on holiday. I did EVERYTHING for the kids, though he did help with 2 baths. I was annoyed. I got no time alone with him as the eldest was playing up so I was dealing with kids all night, getting no sleep. He drank a lot. One day he got drunk and was verbally abusive. Another day he got so drunk he was vomiting, then tried to tell me it was food poisoning despite him not eating all day. I was thoroughly fed up. The 7 year old's night behaviour was still going on at this point, and I would argue with Dave about it. He'd tell me that it'd been nearly a year and to let her just scream. I'd refuse incase she woke her sister or the neighbours reported us. Life was very stressful, work was also stressful for him.

We came back on 13 July. The 7 year old was playing up and after a few hours I sent Dave to her as I had a migraine. He smacked her. Now up until 2017 nobody had ever smacked her. However this year I admit to smacking her, lightly, and saying awful things to her. I can't justify it, it was wrong. I was sleep deprived and at the end of my tether but I was wrong, very very nasty. But the smack Dave gave her that night left a handprint and I was terrified. So I yelled GET OFF HER. the handprint faded but I was angry. Dave was angry, he called me a vindictive bitch, said I'd only yelled to have him arrested. He slept downstairs, pacing. I didn't see him 14 July as I leave before him in the morning. I stayed in a hotel that night with the kids, emailed him to tell him to leave, described his behaviour and how unhappy I was.

He didn't leave. He spent 15-16 July in bed, not even getting up for food. I told him to leave or I'd have him removed, he carried on ignoring me but set his phone up to record himself (to prove his innocence to the police). 17 July he went to work. I packed him a bag and left it outside, he collected it. I didn't see him. Emails had been going back and forth, the usual arguments and accusations. He stayed in a hotel that night.

18 July, still arguing, I sent him a list of his violence. He replied "I really hope they get to our girls soon" which I assumed meant he'd reported me to child protection. I now know it refers to his suicide note. He left work early and drove for 1.5 hours to collect nitrogen gas (bought online, changed passwords so I'd never know). He spoke to Dan on the way, telling him he was going for a drive and would see him the next day (Dan called him). He collected the gas at 5pm. I have no idea what he did from then until 11pm, but he arrived at a car park at some time after 11pm.

He emailed me at 1.30am on 19 July. He told me I was vile, awful, that I had abused and controlled him for 11 years and there was only one way out, he'd finally be free. He goes on to say that he hates himself for not protecting the kids and was paying for it. That he'd do all he could, and no matter what I wouldn't be able to lie my way out of it. Basically implying I'd lose the kids. He ended by telling me how he'd given me everything he had, done everything I'd ever said, built his whole life for our family but that it wasn't enough for me, nothing ever is. This is true (not the bit about not being enough though). Nothing nice, no I love you.

I did reply when I woke up at 5.30am but he didn't receive it as he was already dead.

He was found dead at 6am, they don't know when he died, but clearly between 1.30-5..30am. He had locked himself in his van, connected the nitrogen to a hose, which he placed inside a bag. He had the bag on his head, taped around his neck. The handle to the gas taped open to ensure it stayed flowing. Parked in a car park where he knew he wouldn't be found til morning.

He left 3 notes. One was a reference number for the time the police came out. One was a two-sided list of domestic abuse I'd apparently done to HIM (this ranged from true things like I didn't let him cook/clean - which I know never bothered him -, that I checked his phone/emails which I did occasionally, then to elaborate lies, like me threatening to kill him and Dan, that I checked his van and computer, that I'd smashed up the house trying to kill him and blamed him. Then things he'd twisted to sound bad, like that he "wasn't allowed to look at women on tv in underwear" which isn't true, it was porn I had a problem with, but he knew writing that didn't look as bad). Also a list of male domestic violence helplines and shelters which I don't think he called.

And his main note - which says he could no longer go on living in fear of being arrested or attacked by my friends, that I'd taken the kids from him but I was the abuser, that he had nothing left and I'd won. His money is to go to the kids, including his escape fund (he had £1300 cash on him which he'd hidden, I had no idea). He asks whoever finds him to check his phone as it will "tell them all they need to know", it says "please save my girls from that monster", apologises to the kids for not being "able to protect you from your mum" and tells them he loves them.

Wow, right.

Since his death I've got more information.

The friday I spent in a hotel he'd been trying to go out all night with Dan but Dan was busy - he knew we'd argue over it, so perhaps he was trying to provoke me. He was normal at work, no signs of any mental issues ever. He took the passcode off his iPhone for the police. He took his driving licence from my bag (I had it from holiday) and put it in his wallet for ID. He wiped his GPS. He wiped his phone of everything apart from photos and emails, he signed out of all apps. Bizarrely he left a list of passwords on his phone, which I assume he forgot.


He deleted all the messages on his phone between him and Dan that referred to them going out for a drink and them being friends. He deactivated facebook. He changed all his passwords during the time I left in Feb and when he left in May. He deleted the entire lot of messages on DAN'S phone between them at the beginning of June.

I believe he did all of the above for one of two reasons. Either to spite me, knowing it'd make me upset and obsess, that I'd never have any answers. OR, he felt I controlled his life so he controlled his death.

I have to admit I did REGULARLY threaten to have him arrested and sent to prison for his violence (meaning his old violence) and I know he felt I would lie and say it was still happening, that I'd use photos of bruises (taken for medical reasons) as evidence. I also REGULARLY threatened him that he'd only get supervised visits with his kids at a contact centre. Whilst I never followed through with those threats, and only said it when I was angry or arguing, I know he really believed he'd never see his kids again (or at least unsupervised) and when he was first suicidal, there was nothing I could say to convince him he'd see his kids. He was adamant he would lose in court and never see them.

You know what makes no sense? He didn't try. He took my word for it. He had enough cash on him (and in the bank) to go see a lawyer, get advice, he didn't have to admit to anything. But he didn't. He didn't try. He didn't go to a lawyer or court, he just killed himself. This "escape fund" he didn't escape with was more than enough to rent somewhere, hell even get a plane ticket but he didn't. When I left, he begged for me back - he had his own rental in May and quit it - he had chances to leave! If he was staying with me for the kids then he'd carry on!

He told me at some point in the last year that he thought I poisoned his food - so he'd feed some to the 2 year old to make sure I wouldn't risk poisoning it again....!!!

It breaks my heart to think he could have been planning this for months or weeks - though it feels like the day was impulsive it was clearly planned for some time or other. He didn't say goodbye to me or the kids, the last time he saw us and the last things he said were awful. He didn't say he loved me either.

On his phone (I used software to restore it) I found he'd searched for masks etc (but ended up using a bag?!), he'd even searched for the correct grammar to use in his suicide note, he'd searched for gas, how to make a will, (he didn't make one, no idea why not, unless he didn't have time). He had reminders on his phone to leave out the notes, take off his passcode, wipe his GPS.... it was very planned.

Yet he was still wearing his wedding ring - he never took it off, and whenever I asked why he'd tell me he was still married even if I wasn't (even if I took mine off or we'd argued etc) so surely that means something? But if it does then why be so hateful in his note?

Thankfully the police are happy with my parenting - but what if his plan had worked? Did he really want the kids to lose us both? Or was he arrogantly thinking it'd never work?

Also, if he was desperate to protect the kids - why not print off these emails, or report me to police or child services, why kill himself? Surely that's the last thing you do?

I miss him so much... my 7 year old now behaves perfectly at night... but she misses her daddy so much and it breaks my heart. The 2 year old has no clue.

I feel like he was angry and just went too far - but he knew what he was doing, he knew he'd have no time to change his mind.

I can't cope, I know he was paranoid (the guy he was scared of had never even met him!!) but I loved him.... he was always convinced I didn't love him, he started to think I hated him.... he was so wrong.

I feel like I drove him to suicide... I feel such guilt... he did work hard, he did give us everything, and right up til his death I knew he loved me, but now I'm not so sure... my daughter is broken, she doesn't know the truth only that he's gone, she's struggling but she has counselling which helps. I know this will affect us all forever. I love him so much, I miss him so much, everything reminds me of him....

sorry I went on so long...
dlr87
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#1

Postby Theorease » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:21 pm

dlr87 wrote:I feel like I drove him to suicide... I feel such guilt... he did work hard, he did give us everything, and right up til his death I knew he loved me, but now I'm not so sure... my daughter is broken, she doesn't know the truth only that he's gone, she's struggling but she has counselling which helps. I know this will affect us all forever. I love him so much, I miss him so much, everything reminds me of him....

sorry I went on so long...

I did skip to the end as suggested. Suicide is a plague these days for men. I doubt very much it was down to your influence in the majority. Even if I'm wrong take comfort in this: there's no such thing as free will. We think and behave purely according to environmental and biological factors entirely beyond our control. I/you/everybody is just a powerless spark of perceptual consciousness feeling and experiencing what our brains and senses tell it, and remember, we have no control over what our brain or the environment tells us/directs us to act. So even if I killed somebody tomorrow it really wouldn't be my fault. Nor yours.
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#2

Postby quietvoice » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:49 am

Theorease wrote: there's no such thing as free will. We think and behave purely according to environmental and biological factors entirely beyond our control.

(No wonder you think Richard is full of woo.)

Really? The free will that we have is where we "will" our attention. Where we place our focus, what thoughts we pay attention to or don't pay attention to, that is where our freedom lies.

Are you saying that you had no choice in joining this forum and making 17 comments in the 12 threads you've selected in which to comment?
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#3

Postby quietvoice » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:58 am

2006 . . . He retaliated with violence.

That was your first MAJOR hint to get the hell out of there.

The violence wasn't that bad, it was more shoving me around, throwing drinks at me, kicking me.

What kind of role models were your parents; did they display violence toward each other so that you had no idea that this is not how one treats other people?

Jan 2017 was when things went irreversibly wrong.

I'm sorry—you were warned in the year Two-thousand-and-Six. And countless times in between. And after.

I love him so much,

And you love yourself not so much, or else you'd have left him in your dust as you ran far, far away a long, long time ago.

I'm glad he's gone, finally. My condolences. Now you and your girls can begin to heal. It's time to get your head on straight, and don't look back. Raise your girls in a properly loving environment. Be well.
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#4

Postby Theorease » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:11 am

quietvoice wrote:The free will that we have is where we "will" our attention. Where we place our focus, what thoughts we pay attention to or don't pay attention to, that is where our freedom lies.

Nope.

Are you saying that you had no choice in joining this forum and making 17 comments in the 12 threads you've selected in which to comment?

Yup.
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#5

Postby quietvoice » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:18 am

Theorease wrote:
quietvoice wrote:The free will that we have is where we "will" our attention. Where we place our focus, what thoughts we pay attention to or don't pay attention to, that is where our freedom lies.

Nope.

Are you saying that you had no choice in joining this forum and making 17 comments in the 12 threads you've selected in which to comment?

Yup.

To deny that man has volitional consciousness, and then to provide advice in a psychology forum, is pure folly.
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#6

Postby Theorease » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:23 am

Nonsense. The information we receive/assimilate influences our thoughts and actions. Why should I not offer advice? I'm calm and relatively happy, with a mightily thick skin...
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#7

Postby quietvoice » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:26 am

Theorease wrote:Nonsense. The information we receive/assimilate influences our thoughts and actions. Why should I not offer advice? I'm calm and relatively happy, with a mightily thick skin...

How did you choose to create this response?

How do you know to go one way or another in any endeavor?
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#8

Postby Theorease » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:31 am

My brain (formed entirely by forces out of my control) and sensory inputs direct me to behave in that way.
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#9

Postby quietvoice » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:32 am

Theorease wrote:Why should I not offer advice?

The offering and taking of advice presupposes a voluntary action either in the direction of the advice, or not. How does that happen without thought that can go one way or another, at one's volition?
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#10

Postby quietvoice » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:32 am

Theorease wrote:My brain (formed entirely by forces out of my control) and sensory inputs direct me to behave in that way.

I think you're a shill.
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#11

Postby Theorease » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:42 am

quietvoice wrote:
Theorease wrote:Why should I not offer advice?

The offering and taking of advice presupposes a voluntary action either in the direction of the advice, or not.

Er, no, it doesn't.

How does that happen without thought that can go one way or another, at one's volition?

We only take advice if we think it is wise/accurate to do that; and that "decision" is made based on what our brains tell us
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#12

Postby Theorease » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:43 am

quietvoice wrote:
Theorease wrote:My brain (formed entirely by forces out of my control) and sensory inputs direct me to behave in that way.

I think you're a shill.

Well; I'm not - and what possible organisation you think I could be in cahoots with is beyond me.
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#13

Postby quietvoice » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:45 am

Theorease wrote:We only take advice if we think it is wise/accurate to do that;

You've never in your life made an unwise decision, nor seen anyone in your life make an unwise decision, whether they received advice about that decision or not?
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#14

Postby Theorease » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:47 am

Everybody always does what their brain tells them - sometimes the brain gives bad directions.
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