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Richard Dawkins... an Enemy of Reason?


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vigilae
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Joined: 04 Dec 2005
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Location: West Coast, Canada

Post Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:41 am

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I love much of what Dr. Dawkins has done. He is undermining the irrational by showing their arguments as baseless.

However, Dawkins loses big points with me for being so blindly militant in his materialism. He's what many call a Strong Atheist, the sort of chap that insists gods CANNOT exist, not that there's no evidence of one.

I have much more respect for "weak" atheists -- they don't believe there's a God because there's no evidence of one, but would re-assess should evidence arise.

I'm more of an agnostic, myself.
  
vigilae
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Post Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:42 am

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Last edited by vigilae on Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total
vigilae
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Post Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:42 am

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I love much of what Dr. Dawkins has done. He is undermining the irrational by showing their arguments as baseless. However, Dawkins loses big points with me for being so blindly militant in his materialism. He's what many call a Strong Atheist, the sort of chap that insists gods CANNOT exist, not that there's no evidence of one.

I have much more respect for "weak" atheists - they don't believe there's a God because there's no evidence of one, but would re-assess should evidence arise. I'm more of an agnostic, myself.
vigilae
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Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 103
Location: West Coast, Canada

Post Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:43 am

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I love much of what Dr. Dawkins has done. He is undermining the irrational by showing their arguments as baseless. However, Dawkins loses big points with me for being so blindly militant in his materialism. He's what many call a Strong Atheist, the sort of chap that insists gods CANNOT exist, not that there's no evidence of one.

I have much more respect for "weak" atheists - they don't believe there's a God because there's no evidence of one, but would re-assess should evidence arise. I'm more of an agnostic, myself.
vigilae
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Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 103
Location: West Coast, Canada

Post Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:49 am

My apologies!  Reply with quote  

I kept getting some kind of error while posting, and it looked like each attempt was posted anyways!

I won't do it again! Sorry! Embarassed
Adama
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 146

Post Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:22 pm

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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen Brown
For example, one of the things sociologists are interested in is gender, which many of them understand as socially constructed. A few however, reject this and see gender roles as biologically constructed. This is now an old debate, though one that keeps resurfacing, and the answer is (and obviously I'm hardly the first to say this!) is that either type of reductionism biological or social is inadequate and as a result false. What is needed is a description that includes both types of explanation.


The anwser is and most of the evidence shows that gender roles are not constructed and are due to inherent differences in the mind. The reason this is an 'old debate' to sociologists, is becacuse their not familiar with the last few decadees of research in dozens of mutually consistant and conceptually integrated cognitive scientists. It may be a few sociologists who think its biologically determined, but most behavorial scientists think otherwise.

One reason why I dislike the standard social science model so much, its blatantly outdated. Theres evidence and i can list you some studies if you're interested though environment plays some role. Even the fact that males are more into engineering/math type jobs on average and females social ones is a biological phenomenon, with lots of evidence to support it.


quote:
I was thinking about it this way earlier. I have no doubt that, even though I think he is wrong on this particular matter, Richard Dawkins is a far cleverer man than I am. He is a magnificant system-builder in a way that I could never be. But I think he is wrong because he is a biologist and I am a sociologist and it seems to me that biology, if taken to its logical limits, (which he seems to be doing) is incompatible with sociology when taken to its logical limits.


Yes sociology is wrong and mainly outdated, theres an integrated social science model that includes evolutionary psychology, and etc, which incorporates biology into the explanation, which is the only logical conclusion.


quote:
But I think we need both types of explanation, so where have we (meaning the academic world) gone wrong? Well, I think it is the academic division of labour; meaning the way in which disciplines are divided and isolated from each other with very little reference to what the other is doing.


A problem that is primarily in the standard social science model, the integrated model is a conceptual frame-work of (well research/lots of evidencee) cognitive and biological sciences. This integrated model is the only possible thing that could make sense, and the standard social science model, sociology included largely stand against it.


quote:
Consider psychology, and the fact that many universities will offer social psychology degrees in a chool or department of social sciences, but yet cognitive psychology, or neurological psychology will be the science department; and there is very little reference as to what the other is doing. And ostensibly this is the same subject!


Agreed, hence the attempt to replace the social science model with the integrated model and the conceptual integration of all sorts of cognitive and biological sciences that has been happening for the last few decades with its massive evidence, once again the standard social science model and its illogic and irrationality is the only reason it isn 't more well known, despite its better rationality, evidence and massive concecptual integration.


quote:
The easy off-pat answer to this is a radically different education system that does not close off the natural from the social sciences or vice versa.


yep, but the integrated model has a lot of su pporters and it will over-take the s tandard model its only a matter of time.


quote:
The irony of this is that in a such a system, it would be doubtful that someone like Dawkins could come along and immerse himself in the natural sciece and become the expert his is. Even if it is to the detriment of other related fields of enquiry.


Theres plenty of biologically oriented cognitive scientists, dawkins himself has articles on evolutionary psychology although its never called such.

outdated sociology/psychology/and anthropology is t he problem.
Adama
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 146

Post Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:41 pm

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Theres a long list of meta-analysis and cross cultural studies (human universals) that its nonsensical to talk about gender roles being socially assigned. Males that have rough and tumble play for example, that has nothing to do with socially oriented roles or the fact that men get angrier quicker more often on average than woman.

I mean, its so obviously biological that sociology is just a joke to a lot of people educateed on the last few decades of science *(well a lot of it at leas t). I find biological reductionism is a term for somthing almost no one believes in and is usually used against sensical, evidence based reasoning thats against the highly defensive SSSM. Biological reductionism barely exists in the real academic world in the way its meant when the word is thrown around/ accused at evolutionary cognitive scientists or behavorial geneticists or etc.

I guess your not familiar with the little social experiments that happened to children who say lost their penis and were given female horomones and brought up like a girl. Well they acted like males, and in 25/25 cases of this, the person they felt they were 'men trappeed in women's body's' and showed typical patterns of male behavior, thats only one piece of evidence out of many, Steven Pinker explores a lot of them well.

So males raised as females with female hormones still act like males and feel as if they were trapped in the wrong gender's body, in every case known, even though everything socialized them to be females. If only the world were that simple, hah.

So yeah, gender roles being socially constructed has been the basis of mentally warping those children on the mistaken idea that it works or has a even compartive effect to intuitive biology.
Stephen Brown
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Posts: 136

Post Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:06 pm

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I disagree with just about everything you have just said, but there you go. There may be lots of evidence to support your position, but there is lots to support the opposite and differing positions too. This is the point I was making. The studies you support about gender are as contentious as those you so quickly dismiss; the fact that those poor children behaved the way they did may just show that socialisation is more subtle and total than those cruel experiments presuuposed, and as for being 'highly defensive', try re-reading what you have wrote.

The point is, I don't know who is right and who is wrong on this, I just doubt that there are any off-pat answers, that the problem is solved, or that Dawkins is the last word.

And its probably not a good idea to presume what I am and am not familiar with (or to patronise me) when you don't even know me.

The point is I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm concerned about anyone who thinks they have all the answers, whether they be religious or any other kind of fundamentalist.

Where I think Dawkins (and you by the substance and tone of your messages) has got it wrong is the assumption that anyone offering differing perspectives on the world is automatically a scientific ignoramus or some irrational hick (who supports mutilating chiildren to prove a point). Dawkins and Stephen Pinker are both controversial and disputed even from within the scientific community.

I guess I adhere to a fallibilist theory of truth.
vigilae
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Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 103
Location: West Coast, Canada

Post Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:52 pm

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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen Brown

I guess I adhere to a fallibilist theory of truth.


You're not the only one Stephen. Given that science builds a *model* of the universe, and it's a model that has changed dramatically over the last several centuries (heck, the last several decades) I can't see why anyone would insist that "Person X has all the answers, that's the end of it, if you disagree with me you must be a fool."

As you pointed out, it's fundamentalism in a non-religious form, and political at its core. Politics don't belong in science.
Adama
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 146

Post Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:03 pm

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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen Brown
I disagree with just about everything you have just said, but there you go. There may be lots of evidence to support your position, but there is lots to support the opposite and differing positions too. This is the point I was making. The studies you support about gender are as contentious as those you so quickly dismiss; the fact that those poor children behaved the way they did may just show that socialisation is more subtle and total than those cruel experiments presuuposed, and as for being 'highly defensive', try re-reading what you have wrote.


Of course I am highly defensive about the truth, I meant the SSSM is highly defensive of anything that dares enroach upon their specific fields, hence the isolation from the sciences. But anyway, theres not lots of evidence to support that gender roles are socially determined, our societies reflecct our innate biology, society didn't spring up from nowhere, its the result of evolved social organisms interacting, society isn't somthing that superseeds biology.

I won't argue it theres no point, the evidence to establish that gender roles are largely biological or at least tendencies of the sexes to have differences due to inherent differences in the brain. Review the evidence theres no legitimate scientifc debate left.

The point is, I don't know who is right and who is wrong on this, I just doubt that there are any off-pat answers, that the problem is solved, or that Dawkins is the last word.


quote:
And its probably not a good idea to presume what I am and am not familiar with (or to patronise me) when you don't even know me.


the evidence is overwhelming and i understand the logic of the standard social science modeel and the claims from sociology and they rest on outdated erronoues concepts.


quote:
The point is I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm concerned about anyone who thinks they have all the answers, whether they be religious or any other kind of fundamentalist.


No one claims to have all the anwsers, i'm saying that a conceptually integrateed field of dozens of modern cognitive sciences have largely anwsered that question and rejected the idea of social gender based roles.


quote:
Where I think Dawkins (and you by the substance and tone of your messages) has got it wrong is the assumption that anyone offering differing perspectives on the world is automatically a scientific ignoramus or some irrational hick (who supports mutilating chiildren to prove a point). Dawkins and Stephen Pinker are both controversial and disputed even from within the scientific community.

I guess I adhere to a fallibilist theory of truth.


No i'm just familiar with sociology, anthropology and psychology + the integrated model and I realize the integrated model has way more evidencee rationality/whatever.
Stephen Brown
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Posts: 136

Post Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:27 pm

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Well I'm familiar with Harry Potter, but it doesn't make me an expert in Wichcraft.

Maybe you're right, I dunno. My point was not to prove some truth about gender roles. If those behind the genome project can crack this problem then good on 'em. I'm not out to rain on anyone's parade, but I do worry about zealots of whatever persuasion. There are religious zealots and political zealots and maybe some of Dawkins supporers are zealots as well. The way some people idolise him does remind me of the way some looked to, for example, Marx as someone who has provided the ultimate answer.

Also, there is no single unified social scientific method that Adama speaks of. There are several mutually incompatible methods within sociology that are different from those of psychology, which in turn differs from anthropology.

The point is Adama is that you're not the only one who seeks the truth, I just think you might be wrong. But by making yourself out to have some priviliged position with regard 'the truth' because you've read all of Dawkins' books is unconvincing, as is the assertion that you are familiar with social sciences before attributing propositions to them that are patantly untrue. Yes, the social science evidence might be wrong, course it might, but your assertion that there isn't a lot of it is ludicrous. Have you been in a library recently? You can't shift for this stuff. Don't get me wrong, I have a problem with much of it, but I can't make it go away by pretending it doesn't exist!

About 5 or 6 years ago I had a girlfriend who was a big fan of Dawkins, and thought his explanation was 'the truth'. The problem was, was that when I asked her to justify her beliefs, she could only offer a theory - Dawkins. Whe I asked her to prove Dawkin's theory, or to show how he had proved his theory she couldn't.

Now maybe she didn't know Dawkins as well as she might, but I suspect what you think is a matter of refutation is really simply opposing one theory with another. Or maybe I'm wrong.

Vigilae - I agree with you. One of the big criticisms of Dawkins is that his work is full of non sequitors as he moves from science to politics in a populist simplistic manner. "The Selfish Gene" is full of this stuff. And to be honest, his attack on religion is cheap. Saying religion is irrational would have been startling and original in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, now its just banal. Religion is a matter of faith not science, and by criticising religion for not being science is a category error.
__Tigger__
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Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 376
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:09 pm

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quote:
Religion is a matter of faith not science, and by criticising religion for not being science is a category error.


This thread may shortly head off in the same pattern I have seen many times over (and probably the reason religious discussion is banned from this forum)... it can be fruitless and ultimately revolves around a single concept; either you believe in the non physical or you don't.... it's simple, don't over complicate it... if you believe in the non physical then anything is possible and no one can confirm or deny your claim. It can however be reduced to a matter of probability which is what Dawkins does... which is not the argument of a 'Strong' Atheist. Dawkins is not very subtle in his conveyance of those concepts however... which unfortunately some take as arrogance... really though he is trying not to beat about the bush and is hammering the point home. As Dawkins says "...the burden of proof is on the advocates of the existence of God"

Dawkins is not the be all and end all... no one should be idolised. Ever.

Science models reality... it is a model, it is the most accurate model we have of reality. The model changes, it evolves and gaps are filled in as we uncover more... it is doing a very nice job indeed of describing reality... and all scientists worth their salt know that there are pieces missing in the puzzle. Those gaps are already well and truly devoid of the concept of a human centric universe... but that's not sad at all... it's humbling and gives us more responsibility to take charge because we are the only sentient beings we know about at this point in time that have that understanding.
sgreen007
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Posts: 909
Location: Bristol, UK.

Post Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:28 pm

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In all of the therapies investigated by Dawkins any success in those
therapies was accredited to placebo by Dawkins.

Did science come up with the placebo model?

They appear to test everything against it.

Can anyone point me to an accurate and exhaustive explanation of the
placebo model, and how one might use it to scientifically test therapies such
as the ones briefly studied by Dawkins?
Adama
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 146

Post Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:02 pm

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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen Brown
Well I'm familiar with Harry Potter, but it doesn't make me an expert in Wichcraft.


Good point.


quote:
Maybe you're right, I dunno. My point was not to prove some truth about gender roles. If those behind the genome project can crack this problem then good on 'em. I'm not out to rain on anyone's parade, but I do worry about zealots of whatever persuasion.


Its not soley up to them, studies can be run on as of yet unidentified and unlocated genes to see their effects as well. But yes, zealots and people who propagate nonsense for a goal suck and we need to be skeptical.


quote:
There are religious zealots and political zealots and maybe some of Dawkins supporers are zealots as well. The way some people idolise him does remind me of the way some looked to, for example, Marx as someone who has provided the ultimate answer.


I agree that Dawkins may have zealot fans and is idolized. On one hand he made big scientific contributions that have echoed across most of biology, changing the outlook of generations of scientists (somthing a person should be idolized for) but yeah, irrational zealots even for dawkins. AN example would be the mindless support of the great ape project.


quote:
Also, there is no single unified social scientific method that Adama speaks of. There are several mutually incompatible methods w ithin sociology that are different from those of psychology, which in turn differs from an thropology.


I never spoke of a unified method, I spoke of a conceptually integrated social science model that has superior evidence, better logic and incorporates more consistant fields. Sociology contradicts psychology and anthropology and vice versa, vice versa, they all contradict each other, conclusions from each don't always meld perfectly into one another.


quote:
The point is Adama is that you're not the only one who seeks the truth, I just think you might be wrong. But by making yourself out to have some priviliged position with regard 'the truth' because you've read all of Dawkins' books is unconvincing, as is the assertion that you are familiar with social sciences before attributing propositions to them that are patantly untrue.


My position on the truth regarding the social sciences has nothing to do with Richard Dawkins, nothing at all. No it was inspired by the cognitive psychologists and visionaries of today and the past, robert trivers being one. Heres some quotes from The Adapted mind that highlight the issue nicely.


quote:
The Standard Social Science Model's Treatment of Culture
This logic has critically shaped how nearly every issue has been approached and debated in the social sciences. What we are concerned with here, however, is the impact of the Standard Social Science Model on the development of modern conceptions of culture, its causal role in human life, and its relationship to psychology. Briefly, standard views of culture are organized according to the following propositions (see also D. E. Brown, 1991, p. 146; Tooby & Cosmides, 1989a):

I. Particular human groups are properly characterized typologically as having "a" culture, which consists of widely distributed, or nearly group-universal behavioral practices, beliefs, ideational systems, systems of significant symbols, or informational substance of some kind. Cultures are more or less bounded entities, although cultural elements may diffuse across boundaries.
2. These common elements are maintained and transmitted "by the group," an entity that has cross-generational continuity.

3. The existence of separate streams of this informational substance, culture, transmitted from generation to generation, is the explanation for human within-group similarities and between-group differences. In fact, all between- group differences in thought and behavior are referred to as cultural differences and all within-group similarities are regarded as the expressions of a particular culture. Since these similarities are considered to be "cultural," they are, either implicitly or explicitly, considered to be the consequence of informational substance inherited jointly from the preceding generation by all who display the similarity.

4. Unless other factors intervene, the culture (like the gene pool) is accurately replicated from generation to generation.

5. This process is maintained through learning, a well-understood and unitary process that acts to make the child like the adult of her culture.

6. This process of learning can be seen, from the point of view of the group, as a group-organized process called socialization, imposed by the group on the child.

7. The individual is the more or less passive recipient of her culture and is the product of that culture.

8. What is organized and contentful in the minds of individuals comes from culture and is socially constructed. The evolved mechanisms of the human mind are themselves content-independent and content-free and, therefore, what- ever content exists in human minds originally derives from the social or (sometimes) nonsocial environment.

9. The features of a particular culture are the result of emergent group-level processes, whose determinants arise at the group level and whose outcome is not given specific shape or content by human biology, human nature, or any inherited psychological design. These emergent processes, operating at the sociocultural level, are the ultimate generator of the significant organization, both mental and social, that is found in human affairs.

10. In discussing culture, one can safely neglect a consideration of psychology as anything other than the nondescript "black box" of learning, which provides the capacity for culture. Learning is a sufficiently specified and powerful explanation for how any behavior acquires its distinct structure and must be the explanation for any aspect of organized human life that varies from individual to individual and from group to group.

11. Evolved, "biological," or "innate" aspects of human behavior or psychological organization are negligible, having been superseded by the capacity for culture. The evolution of the capacity for culture has led to a flexibility in human behavior that belies any significant "instinctual" or innate component (e.g., Geertz, 1973; Montagu, 1968, p. II; Sahlins, 1976a &b), which, if it existed, would have to reveal itself as robot like rigid behavioral universals. To the extent that there may be any complex biological textures to individual psychology, these are nevertheless organized and given form and direction by culture and, hence, do not impart any substantial character or content to culture.



On the Reasonableness of the Standard Social Science Model
There are, of course, many important elements of truth in the tenets of the SSSM, both in its core logic and in its treatment of culture. The SSSM would not have become as decisively influential if it did not have a strong surface validity, anchored in important realities. For example: It is true that infants are everywhere the same. Genetic differences are superficial. There is within-group similarity of behavior and there are between-group differences, and these persist across generations, but also change over historical time. Highly organized socially communicated information exists outside of any particular individual at anyone time (in the cognitive mechanisms of other individuals), and over time this information can be internalized by the specific individual in question. And so on.

Nevertheless, the Standard Social Science Model contains a series of major defects that act to make it, as a framework for the social sciences, deeply misleading. As a result, it has had the effect of stunting the social sciences, making them seem falsely autonomous from the rest of science (i.e., from the "natural sciences") and precluding work on answering questions that need to be answered if the social sciences are to make meaningful progress as sciences. After a century, it is time to reconsider this model in the light of the new knowledge and new understanding that has been achieved in evolutionary biology, development, and cognitive science since it was first formulated.. These defects cluster into several major categories, but we will limit our discussion to the following three:

I. The central logic of the SSSM rests on naive and erroneous concepts drawn from outmoded theories of development. For example, the fact that some aspect of adult mental organization is absent at birth has no bearing on whether it is part of our evolved architecture. Just as teeth' or breasts are absent at birth, and yet appear through maturation, evolved psychological mechanisms or modules (complex structures that are functionally organized for processing information) could develop at any point in the life cycle. For this reason, the many features of adult mental organization absent at birth need not be attributed to exposure to transmitted culture, but may come about through a large number of causal avenues not considered in traditional analyses.

2. More generally, the SSSM rests on a faulty analysis of nature-nurture issues, stemming from a failure to appreciate the role that the evolutionary process plays in organizing the relationship between our species-universal genetic endowment, our evolved developmental processes, and the recurring features of developmental environments. To pick one misunderstanding out of a multitude, the idea that the phenotype can be partitioned dichotomously into genetically determined and environmentally determined traits is deeply ill-formed, as is the notion that traits can be arrayed along a spectrum according to the degree that they are genetically versus environmentally caused. The critique of the SSSM that has been emerging from the cognitive and evolutionary communities is not that traditional accounts have underestimated the importance of biological factors relative to environmental factors in human life. Instead, the target is the whole framework that assumes that "biological factors" and "environmental factors" refer to mutually exclusive sets of causes that exist in some kind of explanatory zero-sum relationship, so that the more one explains "bio- logically" the less there is to explain "socially" or "environmentally. " On the contrary, as we will discuss, environmentalist claims necessarily require the existence of a rich, evolved cognitive architecture.

3. The Standard Social Science Model requires an impossible psychology. Results out of cognitive psychology, evolutionary biology, artificial intelligence, developmental psychology, linguistics, and philosophy converge on the same conclusion: A psychological architecture that consisted of nothing but equipotential, general-purpose, content-independent, or content-free mechanisms could not successfully perform the tasks the human mind is known to perform or solve the adaptive problems humans evolved to solve-from seeing, to learning a language, to recognizing an emotional expression, to selecting a mate, to the many disparate activities aggregated under the term "learning culture" (Cosmides & Tooby, 1987; Tooby & Cosmides, 1989a). It cannot account for the behavior observed, and it is not a type of design that could have evolved.

The alternative view is that the human psychological architecture contains many evolved mechanisms that are specialized for solving evolutionarily Iong-enduring adaptive problems and that these mechanisms content-specialized representational formats, procedures, cues, and so on. These richly content-sensitive evolved mechanisms tend to impose certain types of content and conceptual organization on human mental life and, hence, strongly shape the nature of human social life and what is culturally transmitted across generations. Indeed, a post-Standard Model psychology is rapidly coalescing, giving a rapidly expanding empirical foundation to this new framework. In fact, historically, most of the data already gathered by psychologists supports such a view. It required a strongly canalized interpretative apparatus to reconcile the raw data of psychology with the central theoretical tenets of SSSM psychology.

Before examining in detail what is wrong with the SSSM and why the recognition of these defects leads to the formulation of anew model with greater explanatory power, it is necessary first to alleviate the fears of what would happen if one "falls off the edge" of the intellectual world created by the SSSM. These fears have dominated how alternative approaches to the SSSM have been treated in the past and, unless addressed, will prevent alternatives from being fairly evaluated now. Moreover, the Standard Model has become so well-internalized and has so strongly shaped how we now experience and interpret social science phenomena that it will be difficult to free ourselves of the preconceptions that the Standard Model imposes until its Procrustean operations on psychology and anthropology are examined.


and:


quote:
Progress has been severely limited because the Standard Social Science Model mischaracterizes important avenues of causation, induces researchers to study complexly chaotic and unordered phenomena, and misdirects study away from areas where rich principled phenomena are to be found. In place of the Standard Social Science Model, there is emerging a new framework that we will call the Integrated Causal Model. This alternative framework makes progress possible by accepting and exploiting the natural connections that exist among all the branches of science, using them to construct careful analyses of the causal interplay among all the factors that bear on a phenomenon. In this alternative framework, nothing is autonomous and all the components of the model must mesh.

In this chapter, we argue the following points:

I. There is a set of assumptions and inferences about humans, their minds, and their collective interaction-the Standard Social Science Model-that has pro- vided the conceptual foundations of the social sciences for nearly a century and has served as the intellectual warrant for the isolationism of the social sciences.

2. Although certain assumptions of this model are true, it suffers from a series of major defects that make it a profoundly misleading framework. These defects have been responsible for the chronic difficulties encountered by the social sciences.

3. Advances in recent decades in a number of different disciplines, including evolutionary biology, cognitive science, behavioral ecology, psychology, hunter- gatherer studies, social anthropology, biological anthropology, primatology, and neurobiology have made clear for the first time the nature of the phenomena studied by social scientists and the connections of those phenomena to the principles and findings in the rest of science. This allows anew model to be constructed-the Integrated Causal Model-to replace the Standard Social Science Model.

4. Briefly, the ICM connects the social sciences to the rest of science by recognizing that:

a. the human mind consists of a set of evolved information-processing mechanisms instantiated in the human nervous system;

b. these mechanisms, and the developmental programs that produce them, are adaptations, produced by natural selection over evolutionary time in ancestral environments;

c. many of these mechanisms are functionally specialized to produce behavior that solves particular adaptive problems, such as mate selection, language acquisition, family relations, and cooperation;

d. to be functionally specialized, many of these mechanisms must be richly structured in a content-specific way;

e. content-specific information-processing mechanisms generate some of the particular content of human culture, including certain behaviors, artifacts, and linguistically transmitted representations;

f. the cultural content generated by these and other mechanisms is then present to be adopted or modified by psychological mechanisms situated in other members of the population;

g. this sets up epidemiological and historical population-level processes; and

h. these processes are located in particular ecological, economic, demographic, and intergroup social contexts or environments.

On this view, culture is the manufactured product of evolved psychological mechanisms situated in individuals living in groups. Culture and human social behavior is complexly variable, but not because the human mind is a social product, a blank slate, or an externally programmed general-purpose computer, lacking a richly defined evolved structure. Instead, human culture and social behavior is richly variable because it is generated by an incredibly intricate, contingent set of functional programs that use and process information from the world, including information that is pro- vided both intentionally and unintentionally by other human beings.


Is that highlighted a bit more now?


quote:
Yes, the social science evidence might be wrong, course it might, but your assertion that there isn't a lot of it is ludicrous. Have you been in a library recently? You can't shift for this stuff. Don't get me wrong, I have a problem with much of it, but I can't make it go away by pretending it doesn't exist!


Yes I am very well read up on the evidence for gender roles; most of it is professional malpractice of anthropologists to grossly exaggerate the magical differences of other cultures, which upon examination, doesn't exist. Surely you can understand that someone educated on both modern b iology, modern cognitive science and sociology/anthrpology/psychology would say that the evidednce for gender roles b eing social (sex gender roles) is small or eclipsed by the evidence that its biological.

[qu ote]About 5 or 6 years ago I had a girlfriend who was a big fan of Dawkins, and thought his explanation was 'the truth'. The problem was, was that when I asked her to justify her beliefs, she could only offer a theory - Dawkins. Whe I asked her to prove Dawkin's theory, or to show how he had proved his theory she couldn't.[/quote]

What theories? Dawkins is brilliant and his thoughts about 'selfish' genes and evolution are undoubtedly right his explanations are most often the trtuth because he doesn't venture into subjects he's ignorant about. Dawkins is a good thinker and a good scientist and not many people idolize him beyond that.


quote:
Now maybe she didn't know Dawkins as well as she might, but I suspect what you think is a matter of refutation is really simply opposing one theory with another. Or maybe I'm wrong.


I think the matter of refutation comes with 1. statistical probability 2. evidence 3.scientific method, etc.


quote:
Vigilae - I agree with you. One of the big criticisms of Dawkins is that his work is full of non sequitors as he moves from science to politics in a populist simplistic manner. "The Selfish Gene" is full of this stuff. And to be honest, his attack on religion is cheap. Saying religion is irrational would have been startling and original in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, now its just banal. Religion is a matter of faith not science, and by criticising religion for not being science is a category error.


Lets be honest he's critisizing religious people who make false scientific claims about the universe because he cares about the truth, not to be edgy and witty or controversial. secondly the selfish gene is a political concept by its very definition, you can't talk about genes being survival machines without coming to the realization that things like gender stereotypes or certain actions between the sexes may have a genetic basis.
Adama
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 146

Post Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:10 pm

 Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen Brown
Well I'm familiar with Harry Potter, but it doesn't make me an expert in Wichcraft.


Good point.


quote:
Maybe you're right, I dunno. My point was not to prove some truth about gender roles. If those behind the genome project can crack this problem then good on 'em. I'm not out to rain on anyone's parade, but I do worry about zealots of whatever persuasion.


Its not soley up to them, studies can be run on as of yet unidentified and unlocated genes to see their effects as well. But yes, zealots and people who propagate nonsense for a goal suck and we need to be skeptical.


quote:
There are religious zealots and political zealots and maybe some of Dawkins supporers are zealots as well. The way some people idolise him does remind me of the way some looked to, for example, Marx as someone who has provided the ultimate answer.


I agree that Dawkins may have zealot fans and is idolized. On one hand he made big scientific contributions that have echoed across most of biology, changing the outlook of generations of scientists (somthing a person should be idolized for) but yeah, irrational zealots even for dawkins. AN example would be the mindless support of the great ape project.


quote:
Also, there is no single unified social scientific method that Adama speaks of. There are several mutually incompatible methods w ithin sociology that are different from those of psychology, which in turn differs from an thropology.


I never spoke of a unified method, I spoke of a conceptually integrated social science model that has superior evidence, better logic and incorporates more consistant fields. Sociology contradicts psychology and anthropology and vice versa, vice versa, they all contradict each other, conclusions from each don't always meld perfectly into one another.


quote:
The point is Adama is that you're not the only one who seeks the truth, I just think you might be wrong. But by making yourself out to have some priviliged position with regard 'the truth' because you've read all of Dawkins' books is unconvincing, as is the assertion that you are familiar with social sciences before attributing propositions to them that are patantly untrue.


My position on the truth regarding the social sciences has nothing to do with Richard Dawkins, nothing at all. No it was inspired by the cognitive psychologists and visionaries of today and the past, robert trivers being one. Heres some quotes from The Adapted mind that highlight the issue nicely.


quote:
The Standard Social Science Model's Treatment of Culture
This logic has critically shaped how nearly every issue has been approached and debated in the social sciences. What we are concerned with here, however, is the impact of the Standard Social Science Model on the development of modern conceptions of culture, its causal role in human life, and its relationship to psychology. Briefly, standard views of culture are organized according to the following propositions (see also D. E. Brown, 1991, p. 146; Tooby & Cosmides, 1989a):

I. Particular human groups are properly characterized typologically as having "a" culture, which consists of widely distributed, or nearly group-universal behavioral practices, beliefs, ideational systems, systems of significant symbols, or informational substance of some kind. Cultures are more or less bounded entities, although cultural elements may diffuse across boundaries.
2. These common elements are maintained and transmitted "by the group," an entity that has cross-generational continuity.

3. The existence of separate streams of this informational substance, culture, transmitted from generation to generation, is the explanation for human within-group similarities and between-group differences. In fact, all between- group differences in thought and behavior are referred to as cultural differences and all within-group similarities are regarded as the expressions of a particular culture. Since these similarities are considered to be "cultural," they are, either implicitly or explicitly, considered to be the consequence of informational substance inherited jointly from the preceding generation by all who display the similarity.

4. Unless other factors intervene, the culture (like the gene pool) is accurately replicated from generation to generation.

5. This process is maintained through learning, a well-understood and unitary process that acts to make the child like the adult of her culture.

6. This process of learning can be seen, from the point of view of the group, as a group-organized process called socialization, imposed by the group on the child.

7. The individual is the more or less passive recipient of her culture and is the product of that culture.

8. What is organized and contentful in the minds of individuals comes from culture and is socially constructed. The evolved mechanisms of the human mind are themselves content-independent and content-free and, therefore, what- ever content exists in human minds originally derives from the social or (sometimes) nonsocial environment.

9. The features of a particular culture are the result of emergent group-level processes, whose determinants arise at the group level and whose outcome is not given specific shape or content by human biology, human nature, or any inherited psychological design. These emergent processes, operating at the sociocultural level, are the ultimate generator of the significant organization, both mental and social, that is found in human affairs.

10. In discussing culture, one can safely neglect a consideration of psychology as anything other than the nondescript "black box" of learning, which provides the capacity for culture. Learning is a sufficiently specified and powerful explanation for how any behavior acquires its distinct structure and must be the explanation for any aspect of organized human life that varies from individual to individual and from group to group.

11. Evolved, "biological," or "innate" aspects of human behavior or psychological organization are negligible, having been superseded by the capacity for culture. The evolution of the capacity for culture has led to a flexibility in human behavior that belies any significant "instinctual" or innate component (e.g., Geertz, 1973; Montagu, 1968, p. II; Sahlins, 1976a &b), which, if it existed, would have to reveal itself as robot like rigid behavioral universals. To the extent that there may be any complex biological textures to individual psychology, these are nevertheless organized and given form and direction by culture and, hence, do not impart any substantial character or content to culture.



On the Reasonableness of the Standard Social Science Model
There are, of course, many important elements of truth in the tenets of the SSSM, both in its core logic and in its treatment of culture. The SSSM would not have become as decisively influential if it did not have a strong surface validity, anchored in important realities. For example: It is true that infants are everywhere the same. Genetic differences are superficial. There is within-group similarity of behavior and there are between-group differences, and these persist across generations, but also change over historical time. Highly organized socially communicated information exists outside of any particular individual at anyone time (in the cognitive mechanisms of other individuals), and over time this information can be internalized by the specific individual in question. And so on.

Nevertheless, the Standard Social Science Model contains a series of major defects that act to make it, as a framework for the social sciences, deeply misleading. As a result, it has had the effect of stunting the social sciences, making them seem falsely autonomous from the rest of science (i.e., from the "natural sciences") and precluding work on answering questions that need to be answered if the social sciences are to make meaningful progress as sciences. After a century, it is time to reconsider this model in the light of the new knowledge and new understanding that has been achieved in evolutionary biology, development, and cognitive science since it was first formulated.. These defects cluster into several major categories, but we will limit our discussion to the following three:

I. The central logic of the SSSM rests on naive and erroneous concepts drawn from outmoded theories of development. For example, the fact that some aspect of adult mental organization is absent at birth has no bearing on whether it is part of our evolved architecture. Just as teeth' or breasts are absent at birth, and yet appear through maturation, evolved psychological mechanisms or modules (complex structures that are functionally organized for processing information) could develop at any point in the life cycle. For this reason, the many features of adult mental organization absent at birth need not be attributed to exposure to transmitted culture, but may come about through a large number of causal avenues not considered in traditional analyses.

2. More generally, the SSSM rests on a faulty analysis of nature-nurture issues, stemming from a failure to appreciate the role that the evolutionary process plays in organizing the relationship between our species-universal genetic endowment, our evolved developmental processes, and the recurring features of developmental environments. To pick one misunderstanding out of a multitude, the idea that the phenotype can be partitioned dichotomously into genetically determined and environmentally determined traits is deeply ill-formed, as is the notion that traits can be arrayed along a spectrum according to the degree that they are genetically versus environmentally caused. The critique of the SSSM that has been emerging from the cognitive and evolutionary communities is not that traditional accounts have underestimated the importance of biological factors relative to environmental factors in human life. Instead, the target is the whole framework that assumes that "biological factors" and "environmental factors" refer to mutually exclusive sets of causes that exist in some kind of explanatory zero-sum relationship, so that the more one explains "bio- logically" the less there is to explain "socially" or "environmentally. " On the contrary, as we will discuss, environmentalist claims necessarily require the existence of a rich, evolved cognitive architecture.

3. The Standard Social Science Model requires an impossible psychology. Results out of cognitive psychology, evolutionary biology, artificial intelligence, developmental psychology, linguistics, and philosophy converge on the same conclusion: A psychological architecture that consisted of nothing but equipotential, general-purpose, content-independent, or content-free mechanisms could not successfully perform the tasks the human mind is known to perform or solve the adaptive problems humans evolved to solve-from seeing, to learning a language, to recognizing an emotional expression, to selecting a mate, to the many disparate activities aggregated under the term "learning culture" (Cosmides & Tooby, 1987; Tooby & Cosmides, 1989a). It cannot account for the behavior observed, and it is not a type of design that could have evolved.

The alternative view is that the human psychological architecture contains many evolved mechanisms that are specialized for solving evolutionarily Iong-enduring adaptive problems and that these mechanisms content-specialized representational formats, procedures, cues, and so on. These richly content-sensitive evolved mechanisms tend to impose certain types of content and conceptual organization on human mental life and, hence, strongly shape the nature of human social life and what is culturally transmitted across generations. Indeed, a post-Standard Model psychology is rapidly coalescing, giving a rapidly expanding empirical foundation to this new framework. In fact, historically, most of the data already gathered by psychologists supports such a view. It required a strongly canalized interpretative apparatus to reconcile the raw data of psychology with the central theoretical tenets of SSSM psychology.

Before examining in detail what is wrong with the SSSM and why the recognition of these defects leads to the formulation of anew model with greater explanatory power, it is necessary first to alleviate the fears of what would happen if one "falls off the edge" of the intellectual world created by the SSSM. These fears have dominated how alternative approaches to the SSSM have been treated in the past and, unless addressed, will prevent alternatives from being fairly evaluated now. Moreover, the Standard Model has become so well-internalized and has so strongly shaped how we now experience and interpret social science phenomena that it will be difficult to free ourselves of the preconceptions that the Standard Model imposes until its Procrustean operations on psychology and anthropology are examined.


and:


quote:
Progress has been severely limited because the Standard Social Science Model mischaracterizes important avenues of causation, induces researchers to study complexly chaotic and unordered phenomena, and misdirects study away from areas where rich principled phenomena are to be found. In place of the Standard Social Science Model, there is emerging a new framework that we will call the Integrated Causal Model. This alternative framework makes progress possible by accepting and exploiting the natural connections that exist among all the branches of science, using them to construct careful analyses of the causal interplay among all the factors that bear on a phenomenon. In this alternative framework, nothing is autonomous and all the components of the model must mesh.

In this chapter, we argue the following points:

I. There is a set of assumptions and inferences about humans, their minds, and their collective interaction-the Standard Social Science Model-that has pro- vided the conceptual foundations of the social sciences for nearly a century and has served as the intellectual warrant for the isolationism of the social sciences.

2. Although certain assumptions of this model are true, it suffers from a series of major defects that make it a profoundly misleading framework. These defects have been responsible for the chronic difficulties encountered by the social sciences.

3. Advances in recent decades in a number of different disciplines, including evolutionary biology, cognitive science, behavioral ecology, psychology, hunter- gatherer studies, social anthropology, biological anthropology, primatology, and neurobiology have made clear for the first time the nature of the phenomena studied by social scientists and the connections of those phenomena to the principles and findings in the rest of science. This allows anew model to be constructed-the Integrated Causal Model-to replace the Standard Social Science Model.

4. Briefly, the ICM connects the social sciences to the rest of science by recognizing that:

a. the human mind consists of a set of evolved information-processing mechanisms instantiated in the human nervous system;

b. these mechanisms, and the developmental programs that produce them, are adaptations, produced by natural selection over evolutionary time in ancestral environments;

c. many of these mechanisms are functionally specialized to produce behavior that solves particular adaptive problems, such as mate selection, language acquisition, family relations, and cooperation;

d. to be functionally specialized, many of these mechanisms must be richly structured in a content-specific way;

e. content-specific information-processing mechanisms generate some of the particular content of human culture, including certain behaviors, artifacts, and linguistically transmitted representations;

f. the cultural content generated by these and other mechanisms is then present to be adopted or modified by psychological mechanisms situated in other members of the population;

g. this sets up epidemiological and historical population-level processes; and

h. these processes are located in particular ecological, economic, demographic, and intergroup social contexts or environments.

On this view, culture is the manufactured product of evolved psychological mechanisms situated in individuals living in groups. Culture and human social behavior is complexly variable, but not because the human mind is a social product, a blank slate, or an externally programmed general-purpose computer, lacking a richly defined evolved structure. Instead, human culture and social behavior is richly variable because it is generated by an incredibly intricate, contingent set of functional programs that use and process information from the world, including information that is pro- vided both intentionally and unintentionally by other human beings.


Is that highlighted a bit more now?


quote:
Yes, the social science evidence might be wrong, course it might, but your assertion that there isn't a lot of it is ludicrous. Have you been in a library recently? You can't shift for this stuff. Don't get me wrong, I have a problem with much of it, but I can't make it go away by pretending it doesn't exist!


Yes I am very well read up on the evidence for gender roles; most of it is professional malpractice of anthropologists to grossly exaggerate the magical differences of other cultures, which upon examination, doesn't exist. Surely you can understand that someone educated on both modern b iology, modern cognitive science and sociology/anthrpology/psychology would say that the evidednce for gender roles b eing social (sex gender roles) is small or eclipsed by the evidence that its biological.

[qu ote]About 5 or 6 years ago I had a girlfriend who was a big fan of Dawkins, and thought his explanation was 'the truth'. The problem was, was that when I asked her to justify her beliefs, she could only offer a theory - Dawkins. Whe I asked her to prove Dawkin's theory, or to show how he had proved his theory she couldn't.[/quote]

What theories? Dawkins is brilliant and his thoughts about 'selfish' genes and evolution are undoubtedly right his explanations are most often the trtuth because he doesn't venture into subjects he's ignorant about. Dawkins is a good thinker and a good scientist and not many people idolize him beyond that.


quote:
Now maybe she didn't know Dawkins as well as she might, but I suspect what you think is a matter of refutation is really simply opposing one theory with another. Or maybe I'm wrong.


I think the matter of refutation comes with 1. statistical probability 2. evidence 3.scientific method, etc.


quote:
Vigilae - I agree with you. One of the big criticisms of Dawkins is that his work is full of non sequitors as he moves from science to politics in a populist simplistic manner. "The Selfish Gene" is full of this stuff. And to be honest, his attack on religion is cheap. Saying religion is irrational would have been startling and original in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, now its just banal. Religion is a matter of faith not science, and by criticising religion for not being science is a category error.


Lets be honest he's critisizing religious people who make false scientific claims about the universe because he cares about the truth, not to be edgy and witty or controversial. secondly the selfish gene is a political concept by its very definition, you can't talk about genes being survival machines without coming to the realization that things like gender stereotypes or certain actions between the sexes may have a genetic basis.

again the adaptedd mind on gender roles:


quote:
The social science tradition of categorizing everything that varies as "nonbiological" fails to identify much that is "biological." This is because anthropologists have chosen ill-suited frames of reference (such as those based on surface "behavior" or reflective "meaning") that accentuate variability and obscure the underlying level of universal evolved architecture. There may be good reasons to doubt that the "behavior" of marriage is a cross-cultural universal or that the articulated "meaning" , of gender is the same across all cultures, but there is every reason to think that every human ( of a given sex) comes equipped with the same basic evolved design (Tooby & Cosmides, 1990a). The critical question is not, for example, whether every human male in every culture engages in jealous behaviors or whether mental representations attached to situations of extra-pair mating are the same in every culture; instead, the most illuminating question is whether every human male comes endowed with developmental programs that are designed to assemble (either conditionally or regardless of normal environmental variation) evolutionarily designed sexual jealousy mechanisms that are then present to be activated by appropriate cues. To discern and rescue this underlying universal design out of the booming, buzzing confusion of observable human phenomena requires selecting appropriate analytical tools and frames of reference.


oh and btw some of the most influential cognitive scientists of our day openly quote Dawkins, so yeah, his line of thinking has inspired numerous cognitive scientists too.
  

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