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Psychic energy transference...is this possible?


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Author Thread
skeitel
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Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 775

Post Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:53 am

Psychic energy transference...is this possible?    Reply with quote  

Transfer of pain from one subject to another...one subject "getting into" the body of another to detect ailments..."vodoo death"....anyone knows anything else about this? What are your comments about the text below?
........


In 1894, the same year that Trilby was published, a legal case involving a disreputable psychic healer, Ceslav Lubicz-Czynski, was reported. He had a chronically abused medium:

He made use above all of a method which nowadays is hardly ever applied and which was called "Psychic Transfer." He hypnotized a female employee who served him as a medium (and at the same time as a lover) and suggested to the patient sitting nearby that his pains and sufferings would be transferred to the medium. (Hammerschlag, p. 35)

In deep trance, the young woman was caused to experience other people's ailments, daily acquiring her mental version of their pains and suffering. How cruel! The sexual exploitation was also objectionable, for Czynski was at that time pursuing a rich aristocratic client, the Baroness Hedwig von Zedlitz, with the hope of marriage to her. He conducted his "courtship" during his hypnotic services to her. That is what caused the legal case (not his psychological and sexual abuse of the medium), for the Baroness said "Yes" under hypnosis--and her relatives reported the matter to the police.

"Voodoo Death" on Stage
In 1894, another hypnotist, Franz Neukomm, also made European news. Ella first was hypnotized by two doctors who were hired by a "relative" to treat her for a "nervous ailment." Their power of suggestion temporarily suppressed the symptoms, but then she got even worse. Neukomm happened to be passing through, and her relative took Ella to be mesmerized by him. He also achieved an effective cure of her problem. Neukomm then saw opportunity knocking. He convinced Ella's relative that the somnambulist girl might again relapse in the absence of his hypnotic influence and therefore should remain in his care. He would look after her without charge. Her relative then abandoned Ella to Neukomm. Thereafter, she traveled with the hypnotist as his medium. Neukomm was "effective," to say the least. One day, he suggested to Ella that a cold needle, which he placed on her hand, was red-hot. Its touch then produced a real burn on her hand (a known somnambulist phenomenon).

During each show, Neukomm invited an ailing volunteer from the audience up on stage. Then he would hypnotize Ella and give her a suggestion to place herself in the mind of the patient and provide information about his or her state of health. The night that Ella died, Neukomm, to increase the audience's sense of drama, had changed his hypnotic instructions in a small, but significant way. He told Ella, "Your soul will leave your body in order to enter that of the patient."

Ella showed an uncharacteristic, strong resistance to that hypnotic suggestion. She tried to deny it.

Imperious master Neukomm deepened her trance,and firmly repeated the "leave your body" command. Once more, she resisted. He further deepened the trance and repeated the command again.

Ella Salamon died. The postmortem stated that heart failure, caused by Neukomm's hypnotic suggestion, was the probable cause of her death. Neukomm was charged with manslaughter and found guilty. (Schrenck-Notzing, 1902) Ella's death was similar to what anthropologists call "voodoo" death, death by suggestion.

http://www.hypnotism.org/Svengali.htm
  
Patrick G
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Joined: 05 Oct 2008
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Location: Salem, Oregon

Post Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:33 pm

   Reply with quote  


quote:
He made use above all of a method which nowadays is hardly ever applied and which was called "Psychic Transfer."


I think it's still used by voodoo doctors and flim-flam faith healers.

Whatever spiritual foundation you believe, you can't deny the influence of a placebo effect.
kevsheldrake
MVP
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Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 2570
Location: Cheltenham, UK

Post Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:29 pm

   Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by Patrick G

quote:
He made use above all of a method which nowadays is hardly ever applied and which was called "Psychic Transfer."


I think it's still used by voodoo doctors and flim-flam faith healers.

Whatever spiritual foundation you believe, you can't deny the influence of a placebo effect.


I would much rather we referred to a 'suggestive effect' rather than a 'placebo effect'. Placebos have no effect, see the Cochrane meta analysis. Wink

I don't believe that hypnosis can be used to enter the body of another for medical diagnosis. It would require too many laws of physics to change. I'm pretty sure I could design hypno/mentalism routines to mimic the effect, however, if that's what you want.

Kev
Patrick G
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Location: Salem, Oregon

Post Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:45 pm

   Reply with quote  

Isn't the 'suggestion effect' the basis of the placebo effect?
Or, are you just talking about terminology? General public understands the word, so it makes sense to use it.

The placebo effect is the response someone has to a 'treatment' because they believe they are supposed to. Whether the response is directly stated or just implied. Usually around 10%.

What Cochrane meta-analysis?
kevsheldrake
MVP
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Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 2570
Location: Cheltenham, UK

Post Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:39 pm

   Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by Patrick G
Isn't the 'suggestion effect' the basis of the placebo effect?
Or, are you just talking about terminology? General public understands the word, so it makes sense to use it.

The placebo effect is the response someone has to a 'treatment' because they believe they are supposed to. Whether the response is directly stated or just implied. Usually around 10%.

What Cochrane meta-analysis?


This one. The public think they understand the words, "hypnosis" and "energy" but it doesn't make their definitions correct or even necessarily useful.

Kev
Patrick G
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Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 481
Location: Salem, Oregon

Post Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:03 pm

   Reply with quote  

The study states:
"Authors' conclusions
There was no evidence that placebo interventions in general have clinically important effects. A possible small effect on continuous patient-reported outcomes, especially pain, could not be clearly distinguished from bias."


Which implies there is no evidence that placebo interventions in general have NO clinically important effects. Smile I can only assume the risk of bias they mention is the difference between subjective and objective improvement?

If we're just disagreeing on the use of the word, but agreeing on the result of the word, then I guess it's no big deal.
kevsheldrake
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Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 2570
Location: Cheltenham, UK

Post Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:04 am

   Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by Patrick G
If we're just disagreeing on the use of the word, but agreeing on the result of the word, then I guess it's no big deal.


Indeed. I just cringe when I read 'placebo effect' since reading the analysis. There is no doubt that some 'placebo' treatments or therapies deliver suggestions in addition to the nonsense pill. If the pill is the placebo then it is the suggestions that are significant.

As a scientist, hypnotist and pedant I'd like us to discuss suggestions and suggestive effects rather than nonsense pills. Smile

Kev
Stevo74
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Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 550
Location: London, England, Earth.

Post Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:23 am

   Reply with quote  

What about my Kevenergy tablets my Witch Doctor gave me?
Are they Nonsense Pills?

They're the 'Kev-agra' ones ...they seem to keep me up all night! Wink
Patrick G
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Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 481
Location: Salem, Oregon

Post Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:52 pm

   Reply with quote  

Stevo,

Do they give you a suggestive effect or a placebo effect?
kevsheldrake
MVP
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Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 2570
Location: Cheltenham, UK

Post Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:26 am

   Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by Stevo74
What about my Kevenergy tablets my Witch Doctor gave me?
Are they Nonsense Pills?

They're the 'Kev-agra' ones ...they seem to keep me up all night! Wink


LOL. Kevenergy isn't nonsense; it's a cohesive, belief-based, scientifictious therapy model. Ridiculous courses are still selling at amazing prices. Er, hang on.

Kev
skeitel
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Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 775

Post Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:41 am

   Reply with quote  

off topic thread! Crying or Very sad
k2r
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Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 417
Location: Bedford

Post Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:11 pm

   Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by skeitel
off topic thread! Crying or Very sad



yes, but it does prove KevEnergy is so interwoven with all aspects of life Wink
Anthony Jacquin
Moderator
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Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 2935

Post Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:12 pm

   Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by skeitel
off topic thread! Crying or Very sad


Skeitel,

another thread covered some of this recently. Check the history of hypnosis books and you will see that the idea of self diagnosis and diagnosing when zapped others has been around for some time. As I hinted today, Rossi suggests that we have the ability to self diagnose accurately when hypnotized too.

Anthony
kevsheldrake
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Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 2570
Location: Cheltenham, UK

Post Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:17 pm

   Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by skeitel
off topic thread! Crying or Very sad


Sorry.

Kev
skeitel
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Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 775

Post Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:29 pm

   Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by k2r
quote:
Originally posted by skeitel
off topic thread! Crying or Very sad



yes, but it does prove KevEnergy is so interwoven with all aspects of life Wink


Good point! Smile
Sorry, didn't want to be rude. Thanks for all replies!
  

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