Shock induction, what is the theory behind it?

Postby Hypnoboy » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:40 pm

I have a question about the shock induction. The theory is: you make rapport, person trusts you and suddenly you make a sudden move like hand drawing and you say sleep. ....

I once read that fear is also important (a term) for hypnotizing, can some one explain in which way fear is used? (if it is used...)

Are there practical examples where fear is used during an induction?

And is shocking the same as fearing in your opinion?
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#1

Postby jargan » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:41 am

Some people say you don't even necessarily need rapport for a shock induction to work. I don't have the experience to confirm or deny this.

I don't think hypnotists generally use fear to induce hypnosis. Most (ethical) hypnotists would probably prefer using positive feelings like relaxation. Some of the experts say that you can use almost any feeling for inducing hypnosis.

In general it would make sense that I can make you "more compliant" by making you fear something intensely, doesn't it? If I give you a fear to run away from, I can also give you something that (I claim) works against the fear. For example, if I want to sell a disinfectant, it's in my best interests to make you fear the germs that occur naturally everywhere. In fact I've seen a TV commercial using exactly this strategy (for exactly this product, too).
If your model of social relationships is one of people having power over each other, you could say that making someone fear something gives you power over them. I model social relationships differently but "power" sounds so much more impressive than what I'd say in my model. ;)

Now, shock vs. fear? I wouldn't say they're the same. In this case, the goal is the same but that's about it. A shock induction is said to work by creating a confusing moment in which the subject doesn't know how to react, and then filling the gap (until the person figures out what to do) with a suggestion that's easy to carry out, thus making it extremely compelling (but people can still decline to carry it out for a variety of reasons). The underlying principle would be that people hate being confused and will do almost anything to get things to make sense again.
Still, the overall mechanism would work the same with fear: it creates a situation in which you've got a feeling you want to get rid of. Then you provide a way to get rid of it -- done.
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#2

Postby Hypnoboy » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:29 pm

Fear confuses the mind ...

Could it be (I'm not a psychologist) that fear in people controls their mind so much that they keep on thinking about that what scares them most?
The scaring object or situation becomes an obsession. This declares probably phobia's, it tells something about the suggestability from phobia sufferers too.
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#3

Postby germax » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:27 pm

I can recall the videos of a guy on youtube doing "hypno sculpture". Along with some other special features he most probably utilizes a certain amount of fear induced by his fast inductions to get people into trance. 'cold'. Out of a lovely mix of fear and confusion (which is really kinda equal in some ways, as Hypnoboy already pointed out). They fall into an instinctual rigidity which is better known when used with animals (searching for "hypnosis" on youtube always brings a video about this topic on page 1).
I also think this is partly why the handshake-induction works, if only to a low degree. But the hand-in-the-face-induction is probably more fear-inducing and therefore a little more uncomfortable than the "as you notice the lines on your hand ..."-ish way.
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#4

Postby Hypnoboy » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:11 am

In youtube I searched for 'hypno sculpture' . The video's of Maya Jid are really marvellous. Especially the one of the 3 Monkies. I assume you mean him?

These video's are adonized with funny songs; so this makes us contemplate what he says.

When I see him, I wonder how much healing, or energy is used. Like there might be a ratio of 65% healing/magnetism/ and 35% use of psychology and NLP.
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#5

Postby kevsheldrake » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:28 pm

Hypnoboy wrote:When I see him, I wonder how much healing, or energy is used. Like there might be a ratio of 65% healing/magnetism/ and 35% use of psychology and NLP.


There is no healing, magnetism or energy used because they have no bearing on hypnotism or trance.

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#6

Postby Hypnoboy » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:39 pm

kevsheldrake wrote:
Hypnoboy wrote:When I see him, I wonder how much healing, or energy is used. Like there might be a ratio of 65% healing/magnetism/ and 35% use of psychology and NLP.


There is no healing, magnetism or energy used because they have no bearing on hypnotism or trance.

Kev


Kev, you're shocking me. :D
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#7

Postby kevsheldrake » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:45 pm

Hypnoboy wrote:Kev, you're shocking me. :D


You should meet my Jacob's Ladder. :) Only 10KV but shocking enough.

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#8

Postby Feist » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:30 am

A few months ago I asked maya-jid how he did his inductions. They're not related to fear in any way, just to confusion, overloading and shock.

Step1: He's going to talk with a person; ask where the nearest snackbar is (A place everyone in town knows, but is quite far so they have to "go inside" (transderivational search) and think about where it is.

Step2: He suddenly starts to talk very fast, saying and asking all kinds of weird things (This makes the person who's in a transderivational search already even more confused).

Step3: He reaches out his hand, and waits until they shake it.

Step4: He moves the hand to their face, and shouts SLEEP. He also has a rose-fragrance on his hand, which works soothing for the subconscious.

Step5: Deepening


This method is an overloading method; auditory overloading (fast talking), visual overloading (visualising the snackbar), kinesthetic overloading (hand to face), olfactory overloading (rose fragrance).

IMHO, fear isn't the best way to induce a trance. From experience there's always a few things I do before I hypnotize someone:

- Eradicate fear
- Create expectancy
- Tell 'em the truth (no misconceptions about hypnosis)
- Make 'em want it

That's, in my opinion, the best state of mind to bring people in hypnosis


Regards,

Feist
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#9

Postby Hypnoboy » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:57 pm

kevsheldrake wrote:
Hypnoboy wrote:When I see him, I wonder how much healing, or energy is used. Like there might be a ratio of 65% healing/magnetism/ and 35% use of psychology and NLP.


There is no healing, magnetism or energy used because they have no bearing on hypnotism or trance.

Kev


Used? Or necesarry?

Kev I think you can be right. It's not necessary, but I watched a lot video's at Youtube and sometimes these hypnotists make a sort of striking move at the top of the head. But sometimes they don't. Like getting people in trance only by staring or talking or whatever.
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#10

Postby kevsheldrake » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:57 pm

Hypnoboy wrote:Used? Or necesarry?

Kev I think you can be right. It's not necessary, but I watched a lot video's at Youtube and sometimes these hypnotists make a sort of striking move at the top of the head. But sometimes they don't. Like getting people in trance only by staring or talking or whatever.


In the same way that frisbees are not necessary to cook steak. It doesn't mean you can't hold a frisbee while you cook, but the presence or not of a frisbee has no effect on the cooking time or quality of the food. :) The cooked steak would be indistinguishable from one cooked without a frisbee because frisbees don't really exist. :)

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#11

Postby quicknotist » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:26 am

Feist wrote:A few months ago I asked maya-jid how he did his inductions. They're not related to fear in any way, just to confusion, overloading and shock.

Step1: He's going to talk with a person; ask where the nearest snackbar is (A place everyone in town knows, but is quite far so they have to "go inside" (transderivational search) and think about where it is.

Step2: He suddenly starts to talk very fast, saying and asking all kinds of weird things (This makes the person who's in a transderivational search already even more confused).

Step3: He reaches out his hand, and waits until they shake it.

Step4: He moves the hand to their face, and shouts SLEEP. He also has a rose-fragrance on his hand, which works soothing for the subconscious.

Step5: Deepening


This method is an overloading method; auditory overloading (fast talking), visual overloading (visualising the snackbar), kinesthetic overloading (hand to face), olfactory overloading (rose fragrance).


Anyone who has read Win's (Maya-jid) various explanations of how he achieves this will agree that these explanations are often almost as entertaining as the phenomenon itself.

But let's look at what does Win do after he initially shocks, fixates, confuses and misdirects them with his "induction?"

From his own explanation, he leads right into one of a number of very traditional deepeners.
In my opinion, the soothing, innoccuous wording of his deepener helps the victim to accept in nanoseconds (at the speed of thought) that something pleasant and innocent is happening.
I'm not saying they consciously "know" they're being hypnotised, but it's pleasant and innocent, as opposed to being mugged for example, so their critical faculty is diminished enough that they continue to go along with it.

This is a rather similar process to gaining consent and quickly building expectancy don't you think?
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#12

Postby Hypnoboy » Thu May 07, 2009 10:30 am

Feist wrote:A few months ago I asked maya-jid how he did his inductions. They're not related to fear in any way, just to confusion, overloading and shock.

Step1: He's going to talk with a person; ask where the nearest snackbar is (A place everyone in town knows, but is quite far so they have to "go inside" (transderivational search) and think about where it is.

Step2: He suddenly starts to talk very fast, saying and asking all kinds of weird things (This makes the person who's in a transderivational search already even more confused).

Step3: He reaches out his hand, and waits until they shake it.

Step4: He moves the hand to their face, and shouts SLEEP. He also has a rose-fragrance on his hand, which works soothing for the subconscious.

Step5: Deepening


This method is an overloading method; auditory overloading (fast talking), visual overloading (visualising the snackbar), kinesthetic overloading (hand to face), olfactory overloading (rose fragrance).

IMHO, fear isn't the best way to induce a trance. From experience there's always a few things I do before I hypnotize someone:

- Eradicate fear
- Create expectancy
- Tell 'em the truth (no misconceptions about hypnosis)
- Make 'em want it

That's, in my opinion, the best state of mind to bring people in hypnosis


Regards,

Feist


Hey, I have a question about TDS. When you ask the question that brings the hypnotee inside, do you have to wait for an answer then? Or should you immediatly continue with the confusing questions, without waiting for the answer?
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#13

Postby jargan » Thu May 07, 2009 4:07 pm

I'd say that the time during the TDS is an ideal moment to sneak in other things. Your goal is to prevent critical analysis of your suggestions; it's hard to analyse stuff while your conscious mind is busy doing other things. After you've got an answer you're pretty much back to normal, so all you could do then is to utilise the answer in some way.

By the way, I never really understood why you need to call it TDS if you can just as well call it "remembering". ;)
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#14

Postby Hypnoboy » Thu May 07, 2009 9:05 pm

Okay Hi everyone. Listen, I tried it today at people just in the street. I made a TDS question, and until there it all went well. I asked people the direction for a park that didn't exist ( in a major city more than 300.000 citizens) The name of the fake park looked like streets around but it was not real. It was funny to ask it, you saw people wondering what I meant.

Next thing was to confuse, but I had no good example of it, so I made up a suggestion test, they call that letter counting. The trick is that, when you ask someone to count the letters of a word of for instance 9 or 15 letters, suggestible people look to the left (my right) and then they are better suggestible. I thought I could beat 2 fly's at once

1) I have a confusing question
2) I test the suggestibility

But my experience is that people react completely normal when you ask for a non-exixting park, but seem to react different, negative, when you ask something as: ' can you tell me how many letters this word has ' . They suddenly see you as a strange man when you do that, and then they walk away quickly.


I think the next time I have to ask other, better, questions, but I don't know what is meant with the auditory overloading (asking fast and strange questions). Does someone have a few examples.

Further, maybe, it is just that I asked it a couple of people, approx. 6, so the chance that someone is suggestible is not really big yet. If we assume that 1 out of 10 is highly suggestible. That is 0,6 person in this case and that is quite little.
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