Logic nation or troll nation?

#195

Postby quietvoice » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:39 pm

Marais wrote:. . . even though they are claiming to have logic as their core value.

How about you bring up the inconsistency that you've heard from me to that group and report back here what they say about it?
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#196

Postby Marais » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:06 pm

Its different when you are debating someone LIVE with voice chat and when you are just writting stuff.
You may be right all along, and if you actually prove it on the stream and show flaws with this kind of mindset, i will admit that i am wrong and you will help other people at the same time that might fall for this.

Iv done research myself for you and all you have to do is go to https://discordapp.com/invite/NYX25Ab
And contact the guy with the name [msg to debate]
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#197

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:24 pm

Marais wrote:They made over 5000$.

If you think its illogical to grind money on new years eve you can bring that up in the debate


Great, so you acknowledge you intentionally posted SPAM, providing a link in this forum that redirected people to give money to a New Years Eve party.

Real classy move Marais. Like I said, pathetic.
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#198

Postby Marais » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:37 pm

Whats pathetic is that you are all mouth. If you are truly a man you would stand up for what you are saying and go on the stream to debate.
I didn't even know they would be raising money, i just posted a link so you could know where to go to have a debate with the guy.
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#199

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:43 pm

Marais wrote:... if you actually prove it on the stream and show flaws with this kind of mindset, i will admit that i am wrong


Hahahahaha....rofl....

This thread does not hinge on whether or not you admit you are wrong, lol. It ain't about you buddy.

This thread is about a variety of opinions about this thread. People can read through and make up their own minds, regardless of whether or not you "admit" anything.
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#200

Postby Marais » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:52 pm

Yes keep on ignoring what im saying buddy. You seem really mature. You know you would get destroyed in a debate very well and thats why you keep dodging. (just because its an opinion doesnt mean its right, thats why im saying go and debate it)
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#201

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:55 pm

Marais wrote:Whats pathetic is that you are all mouth. If you are truly a man you would stand up for what you are saying and go on the stream to debate.
I didn't even know they would be raising money, i just posted a link so you could know where to go to have a debate with the guy.


Lol. My friend, thIs guy you have fallen in love with is a hustler through and through. He has grown a sizable fan base and is making money off them. You just admitted as such. You helped him by posting SPAM here on this forum.

He has a stage and he is making great use of it. You don't go up on stage to heckle a comedian. It is his house. Trying to debate a comedian in their own house is no debate Marais.
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#202

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:58 pm

Marais wrote:Yes keep on ignoring what im saying buddy. You seem really mature. You know you would get destroyed in a debate very well and thats why you keep dodging. (just because its an opinion doesnt mean its right, thats why im saying go and debate it)


You seem really hooked on this whole "go debate him" as some measure of the value of what this hustler is saying.

It is his stage Marais. That is his home, his turf, it is his swimming pool, his studio, his soap box. I realize you are blind to that fact. I realize you don't realize the stage he has set for himself is part of his performance, it is part of the hustle.
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#203

Postby Marais » Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:42 pm

Rich, just admit youre too big of a pussy to do it. If you actually did research on a guy you would see he isnt hustling in any way. You are projecting yourself on him. He has always been social activist.
The fundraiser is so they could buy food for the group and they do it very rarely. There is alot of people in the house with them. All he ever did in the past is try and help humanity move forward.
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#204

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:55 pm

Marais wrote:The fundraiser is so they could buy food for the group and they do it very rarely. There is alot of people in the house with them. All he ever did in the past is try and help humanity move forward.


Hahaha. That is one way to look at it I guess. Give us $5000 for food. There are so many hungry people in the house.

Really, why don't the people in the house go get jobs so they can afford food? Oh, that's right, cuz they are too busy helping humanity move forward. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Everyday I'm hustlin'
Everyday I'm hustlin'
Everyday I'm hustlin'
Everyday I'm hustlin'
Everyday I'm hustlin'
Everyday I'm hustlin'
Everyday I'm hustlin'
Everyday I'm, everyday I'm

We never steal cars, but we deal hard
Whip it real hard whip it whip it real hard
I caught a charge, I caught a charge
Whip it real hard, whip it whip it real hard

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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#205

Postby Marais » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:12 pm

Man i really feel sad for the people that you try to help. I truly do.
It could be just insane confirmation bias affecting your reason right now, but if you are clear headed you would actually google the guy and see everything without making sh** up and projecting.

But you seem too far gone. I am done with this thread.
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#206

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:20 pm

Marais wrote:...if you are clear headed you would actually google the guy and see everything without making sh** up and projecting.


Easy enough.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail ... h=730f0d5b

I am done with this thread.


Great. Go do something productive with your life. Or, go join the cult so you can beg people for money for food as you "help humanity". Next year maybe I can have the fun of seeing you on the livestream, begging for subsistence.
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#207

Postby Candid » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:36 pm

Marais wrote:Do you understand we live in the best time ever? People are living longer than ever thanks to medicine technology, we are not dying at birth or from smallpox.


And overpopulation is a rapidly growing problem.

Even the poorest people in the EU are living like kings lived hundreds years ago.


All at the expense of the environment.

If global warming is going to be solved, its going to be thanks to our understanding of technology and/or change in peoples mentality.


I very much doubt it. Even if we start a program of depopulation now, we are still going to have housing and parking lots over the land that currently produces our best food.

If everyone would have logic as their core value we would be living in uthopia. People would realize and see the bigger picture.


The bigger picture is that there are already far too many of us, and no government has done anything about it in an acceptable way.

David Suzuki wrote:Thinking of starting a family?

Nothing in the universe continues to grow indefinitely. This is called exponential
growth. The thing about exponential growth is that whatever is
growing, it will double in a certain length of time. At two per cent
it will double in 35 years, at three per cent it will double in 23
years, at four per cent in 17 years and so on. So everything has a
doubling power.

Now, let me give you an example of an exponentially growing system
to show you why it is ludicrous to think that we can continue to
have steady exponential growth. I am going to give you a test tube
full of food for bacteria. I am going to introduce one bacterial
cell into this test tube and that cell is going to go through
exponential growth. It is going to double every minute. So, at the
beginning there is one cell. In one minute there are two, at two
minutes there are four, and at three minutes there are eight and so
on. That's exponential growth. At 60 minutes the test tube is
completely full of bacteria and there is no food left. The question
is: when is the test tube half empty? The answer is, of course, 59
minutes. At 59 minutes you still have half a test tube of food but
you are going to be one minute away from filling it with bacteria.
So at 58 minutes, the test tube is 25 per cent full of bacteria, at
57 minutes, 12.5 per cent. At 55 minutes it is only about three per
cent full of bacteria.

If at 55 minutes one of the bacteria said: "Hey guys, I think we have a population problem, I think we're
running out of food and space," any sensible bacteria would
say: "What the hell are you talking about? 97 per cent of the test
tube is food and we have been here 55 minutes." And they would be
five minutes away from filling it.

Now let's suppose bacteria are not much different from us; that at
59 minutes, a few of them finally smarten up and say: "I think we've
got a problem, we better put every bit of resource into our genetic
engineers and all our high tech guys and they have got to get us out
of trouble." You know what they do? These hot shot scientists come
up in 30 seconds with three new test tubes full of food and nobody
in it. So they have now quadrupled the amount of space and food.
What have they got? At 60 minutes the first test tube is full of
bacteria, 61 minutes the second is full and at 62 minutes all four
are full. Quadruple the space but keep exponential growth you buy
two extra minutes. Now I can tell you that no amount of science and
technology is going to quadruple our space and resources and that we
are long past 55 minutes. We have to be thinking not of continued
growth, or sustainable growth, or even zero growth, we have to talk
about negative growth...


I don't think you can fault Dr Suzuki's logic. Can you? Let's look at exponential growth:

In the 75 years from 1850 to 1925 the population doubled to two billion.
From 1925 to 1975 – 50 years – the population doubled to four billion.
Within the next few years we're going to see it reach eight billion.

Here's the emotional side:

Harrison Brown wrote:The population will increase until the earth is
covered completely and to a considerable depth
with a writhing mass of human beings, much as a
dead cow is covered with a pulsating mass of maggots.


Crazy? Illogical? What do you think (logically, of course) it will take for people to stop exercising their god-given right to have a baby or five?

The one thing technology will never create is GREEN SPACE. Forget recycling and carbon offsets. When one too many trees have been cut down for superhighways, humans are going to be gasping for air.
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#208

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:21 pm

Candid wrote:
I don't think you can fault Dr Suzuki's logic. Can you? Let's look at exponential growth:

In the 75 years from 1850 to 1925 the population doubled to two billion.
From 1925 to 1975 – 50 years – the population doubled to four billion.
Within the next few years we're going to see it reach eight billion.



Love it. Systems theory at it's finest.

What you are describing is a reinforcing loop, unchecked. Allowed to go unchecked the human race will eventually overrun the planet in line with Dr. Suzuki's logic.

There are also balancing loops in the system to account for. Either (1) an epidemic of no pun intended, epic proportions will wipe out a huge percentage of the population, e.g. black plague on an unprecedented scale, or (2) we will kill each other off as resources needed to live run scarce, e.g. water. Both scenarios mankind attempts to regulate via vaccines and technology, but this degrades the balancing loop and only helps the reinforcing loop become stronger, leading to (1) or (2) happening sooner rather than later. Logical right?

Both (1) and (2) are horrific outcomes for the human species, but we will live....or will we?

Nature will exist regardless of our species, the world will continue to spin. The question is to what extent will the human species be able to remain? At some point, with or without the help of mankind global climate change will make the earth uninhabitable for our species. Global climate change obviously occurs, the extent to which mankind helps in this change is rather a muted point...

Well, there is always the argument of some unrecoverable tipping point, e.g. we kill off a critical species like the bee and because we kill this single species the human race is doomed. Climate change is similar. We contribute to .0X% of climate change that would not occur naturally, but that extra .0X% is the tipping point, it pushes us to an unsustainable level as sea levels rise, more hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc. etc. Similarly, bees don't necessarily have to be killed off because of humans. The unrecoverable tipping point could equally occur naturally.

So where does this bring us? Even if (1) or (2) happens sooner rather than later, the human species will not be able to remain on earth indefinitely. Climates change, nature happens. This means at some point we either:

(A) perish and go the way of the dinosaur or;

(B) populate another planet.

For me, the fun part of the discussion is the race! Will we leave the planet before we suffer from (1) or (2)? Will the stress as we begin to reach that tipping point result in tons of resources being dumped into R&D to colonize another planet? If (1) or (2) happens prior to being able to colonize, resources will be shifted to deal with the catastrophic outcomes, slowing down if not halting the ability to obtain (B). This may be the death nail if climate change just steadily continues, uninfluenced by the then reduced population of mankind, yet we are unable to develop a means to find a new planet.

A great book is "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond.

He argues that the invention of agriculture was mans greatest folly. With agriculture came the ability to settle. With settlement came the ability to specialize in skills/trades, to live in close quarters with animals and develop resistance to diseases that ultimately wiped out many indigenous peoples a few thousand years later.

http://www.cloverport.kyschools.us/user ... 0Steel.pdf

Also, I recommend the Fifth Discipline, all about systems thinking, explaining how balancing loops counteract reinforcing loops, i.e. how (1) or (2) will eventually come to pass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifth_Discipline

Ultimately, I agree with Candid that we are on an inevitable path of pain. Even if and when (B) happens, it will not prevent the eventual "collapse" of our species on this planet. And even if mankind somehow pulls it off temporarily, nature in the form of climate change will ensure the reprieve is exactly that, temporary.
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#209

Postby Candid » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:41 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Both scenarios mankind attempts to regulate via vaccines and technology, but this degrades the balancing loop and only helps the reinforcing loop become stronger, leading to (1) or (2) happening sooner rather than later. Logical right?


Indeed.

at some point we either:

(A) perish and go the way of the dinosaur or;

(B) populate another planet.


I don't see humans populating another planet in a hurry!

Having lived many years in the dry tropics (and I know you get around, too) I see water shortage as a likely touchpaper for the Third Big Stoush. We can't create water, can we? There's still the same amount circulating as there's always been, for an ever-growing number of people. Say that to Average Joe and he'll say: "That's okay, we can desalinate the oceans." Duh. And don't get me started on creeping desertification, which is the same thing.

If (1) or (2) happens prior to being able to colonize, resources will be shifted to deal with the catastrophic outcomes, slowing down if not halting the ability to obtain (B). This may be the death nail if climate change just steadily continues, uninfluenced by the then reduced population of mankind, yet we are unable to develop a means to find a new planet.


Bring on the death knell, I say! I loved that TV series about after the demise of mankind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_After_People, even the most resistant buildings having crumbled (I believe the Hoover Dam was to be the last sign of us) and the whole shebang starting again.

As to Jared Diamond, it's all about human convenience, isn't it? Convenience was the watchword in TV ads when I was growing up, to be replaced by a pinprick stab at recycling and care of the environment. Way too late, I say.

Thanks for the link to the Fifth Discipline. I got distracted by the frog-in-a-pot story, which has always bothered me. I say if you drop a frog into boiling water it will be dead in seconds, but I confess I haven't tried it. We senior people know Things Have Changed, don't we? And change is escalating exponentially, too.

Even if and when (B) happens, it will not prevent the eventual "collapse" of our species on this planet. And even if mankind somehow pulls it off temporarily, nature in the form of climate change will ensure the reprieve is exactly that, temporary.


Nil desperandum, Richard. I'm sure Jesus will make a reappearance any day now, and the Good People will be Saved.
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