Angry partner, remorseful...sometimes

#15

Postby Leo Volont » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:09 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
(psychologists) have found it to benefit their professional careers, both financially and in their social value in the community to create more and more "psychological disorders" that they can then treat. .... They modify the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). It started with around 100 disorders. A few decades later and were up to close to 400. Like WTH is generalized anxiety disorder (GAD)? It is the catchall diagnosis for anyone that says they get anxious sometimes. Well who the hell doesn't get anxious sometimes? Why are French kids less ADHD than American kids? Because of an actual disorder or because the psychological community has gone bonkers with labeling every behavior as a potential disorder? Caffeine addiction is now a disorder. So yes, pretty much anyone who would like to be diagnosed with a disorder can peruse the DSM and find themselves in need of mental care.



Hi Richard,

Especially since many more Health Insurance Plans were required to include Mental Health provisions, the Mental Health Community had to be able to Fill In the Blanks of the Insurance Paperwork. Where there is a Diagnosis Block, the Psychologists have to be able to write something in there.

and as a Patient I would prefer that the Doctor wrote in the Least Significant Diagnosis possible. Maybe all the existing 100 were too scary sounding and they needed more Conditions that people would not feel so embarrassed to admit to. You see, no one is really very sure that there is not prejudice and discrimination against people who seek Mental Health Care. For instance, when you take time off at work usually the Employer wants an answer to "where the heck do you think you're going?" "To the Doctor." "what for?" It would be nice if people could be able to legally tell their Bosses to mind their own business, but some employers actually want NOTES from the Doctor (they say Wage Labor isn't Slavery but you can see how demeaning it sometimes gets). So if you are going to be found out for being "Crazy" it would be good to find some mild reason for being considered crazy.

But... maybe I am the only one who thinks that. I can't believe how many people, especially women, go around spreading the word far and wide that they have some Bipolar Condition. that sounds VERY Serious and they seem to be bragging about it. One would think they would ask the Doctor for a Condition that didn't quite sound so Insane. "Hey, Doc, can't you say I have Anxiety Disorder? I can tell the boss that being a Perfectionist about my Work keeps me up at night".

anyway, I DID appreciate your 'rant'. Its something to think about.
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#16

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 pm

Leo Volont wrote:Especially since many more Health Insurance Plans were required to include Mental Health provisions, the Mental Health Community had to be able to Fill In the Blanks of the Insurance Paperwork.


Thanks for making my point. To "Fill in a blank" that is a valid reason to create "new" disorders? No. Because mental health care is now a required provision? That is a logically reason to create "new" and/or more disorders? No.

I understand the dynamic going on. Psychology has struggled as a field since inception to distance itself from Tarot cards and Astrology. Reading bumps on people's heads (Phrenology) to determine their psychological makeup use to be cutting edge science (Palm reading anyone?). What better way to validate your field, your life's passion than to be equated to a medical need. The American Psychological Association has done a wonderful job promoting itself as a medical need.

And I agree! Mental health is a need. Psychology is a valid, scientific field. Hell, I'm a psychologist! But, I recognize we have gone way overboard, we have gone too far trying to turn every little issue into a disorder to be treated. We have created a culture of victims, where everyone is trying to figure out what "disorder" they have.

Based on the latest DSM V, nearly half the population of the U.S. can be labeled as having some form of disorder!!! Talk about creating your own market! A few decades ago you had a small percentage needing mental health treatment, less than 10%. Now it has somehow, magically ballooned to half the population? And of course the defense is people we're embarrassed to admit, so it was under reported. By 40%????? Bullsh*t! It is a broken system, a broken culture that needs to be repaired.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... ation.html

I'm not the only one to recognize this unfortunate result of psychologists wanting their field to gain prominence and validity equivalent to other medical fields.

In 1973 a famous experiment was conducted, showing the misdiagnosis of people by highly trained, well intentioned psychologists. A person comes in and says their not feeling well. It is human nature to want to help. With a broken leg the source of pain is obvious, but with mental it is based on the symptoms the patient claims they have. You don't want to call them a liar, you don't want to send them away thinking they don't have a problem, so you give them a diagnosis. GAD seems to be a popular one these days or some variation of PTSD.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

As a society did we learn from the 1973 experiment? No!!! We went the exact opposite direction.

and as a Patient I would prefer that the Doctor wrote in the Least Significant Diagnosis possible. Maybe all the existing 100 were too scary sounding and they needed more Conditions that people would not feel so embarrassed to admit to. You see, no one is really very sure that there is not prejudice and discrimination against people who seek Mental Health Care. For instance, when you take time off at work usually the Employer wants an answer to "where the heck do you think you're going?"


So that is a good reason to create "new" disorders, because that is what patients prefer? Patients prefer softer, kinder sounding disorders, so create new ones with more pleasant names? Don't call it a heart attack, call it a cardiac tremor? No! That is not how medicine should work, that is not how science should work. You don't treat people medically based on their emotional preference of how a particular ailment or condition is labeled.

As for the employer, -1- That is why there are HIPPA laws in place and -2- it is not like there are not physical ailments that people are embarrassed to tell their employer. STD's anyone? I need to go to the doctor or call off sick, because I have a burning sensation...

Your solution is don't call it an STD, create a new label with a nicer name the patient prefers that allows them to tell the boss.

***
Now to quickly relate all of the above to the OP. He is dating an adult that throws tantrums. There is no need to treat her as some patient with a mental disorder. There is no need for him to be treated for his "disorder" of wanting to play knight. They don't need therapy. He simply needs to stop putting up with her bullsh*t. But, he doesn't know how. Why? What has turned this male into an adult incapable of dealing directly with this adult nonsense? How has this adult been educated to believe therapy is required to fix this situation? What on earth happened to be raised to believe that when an adult throws a hissy fit that the appropriate response is to cuddle them and later make love to them to "repair" the relationship?
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#17

Postby FreeBeez83 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:51 pm

Leo Volont wrote:Dear M. Freebeez,

I am so embarrassed. I am ashamed of myself for getting you so far wrong. I let my imagination run away with itself.
.......
Hmmmm, this is turning into a book in itself. Let me know what you think.


Leo, no worries, I am not furious at all, I was rather bemused by your hypothesis. I am amazed at how much time and efforts you devoted to elaborate an answer to my comments. Thanks for it and the book suggestions. Gonna have a look at it and try to convince my partner to read them too. I will give updates an how things are progressing.


Richard@DecisionSkills wrote: There is no need for him to be treated for his "disorder" of wanting to play knight. They don't need therapy. He simply needs to stop putting up with her bullsh*t. But, he doesn't know how. Why? What has turned this male into an adult incapable of dealing directly with this adult nonsense? How has this adult been educated to believe therapy is required to fix this situation? What on earth happened to be raised to believe that when an adult throws a hissy fit that the appropriate response is to cuddle them and later make love to them to "repair" the relationship?


I have to precise that my initial view and reaction to the outbursts was very different from the current one. I did not accept her behaving as a child, tried many approaches such as ignoring her, shouting back, reasoning her...but it ended up in night long tantrums that left both of us exhausted. Desperately looking for solutions, I was advised to read the Men from Mars-Women from Venus from J. Gray. My current attitude and vision derive from what I understood from that book. The suggested approach sounded counter-intuitive and made me wondering if I was not taking too much on myself. Though, it appeared to be useful in the sense that the duration of her anger bouts was strongly reduced. But I now agree that it may not help both of us in the long term and I am very confused.

While your analysis provide useful insights, the condescending, self righteous and sometimes insulting tone of your comments is detrimental to the delivery of your message. It irritates, not to say it hurts me (yes I am a sensitive little thing), and does not serve your purpose, which I guess is to be helpful. I you are willing to continue participating in a constructive manner to that thread, please take my remark into account.
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#18

Postby Leo Volont » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:59 pm

Hi Richard,

Thank you so much for the wonderful exposition. It was Beautiful! In this day and age when nobody seems to want to write anything longer than a tweet, it is good to be able to read an Opinion Essay good enough for the NY Times from some guy on a Forum. It gives us all hope. It shows that the Modern Educational System hasn’t entirely let us all down.

But!... I need to mention that you seem to have gotten me wrong. I was not suggesting any SOLUTIONS. I agree with you! What I was trying to do was to Get Into the Heads of the Special Interests involved and Elucidate what I think their Motives were and are.

Now, yes, I have my own set of Impossible Quests against the Special Interests, but way down deep I know that nothing will ever change where so much Money is involved. "The Way It Is" is what makes all the Money, and "The Way It Should Be" is always completely penniless – it’s a David vs Goliath match were David doesn’t even have a stone to throw. The only time things change is with the Advents of New Technologies or Energy Systems. Steel changed the World – the ability to forge and roll steel that could be machined to tolerances made the mass production of Steam Engines possible which revolutionized Shipping and created the Rail Roads. Steel reinforced concrete changed the face of the World. Oil changed the World. Assembly lines changed the World. Wire Communications changed the World. Flight changed the World. Radio and TV changed the World. Computers changed the World. But once something is established and Fortunes are made from it, it sets up an Inertia... a momentum that can carry it forward even after it’s long been dead (note the success the Rail Industry Special Interest had in blocking Paved Roads and the Automobile for almost 50 years after they were entirely feasible).

One of my Pet Peeves is Dooms Day Books. I LOVE a good Dooms Day Book -- various reasons why the World is going to hell and Civilization is going to Collapse and the world's Population will drop from the Billions to the Millions. But then you ALWAYS get to the Stupid Last Chapter where the author feels some obligation to offer his SOLUTION to the Problem. Well, THAT shouldn't be the point! To use a Medical Analogy, it is important to Diagnose a Disease without being required to also come up with a Cure at the very same time. Sometimes “You are Sick and you are going to Die” is all that can be said. So sometimes the Rational and Discerning Insight is to Realize that there IS NO FIX. The Biggest Problem of All the Problems is that the Problem has NO SOLUTION.

I think that this is where we are with the Psychology Community’s Special Interests.

But, yes, I agree with you in regards to how we should work with the Facts of Life here at the Anger Management Forum, that we should not pay much heed to all the Disorders that our Posters can list off.... after all, nobody is paying us to take all that crap seriously, are they? Until checks start showing up in our Mail Boxes, we get to be Rational and Objective Human Beings. (hmmmmm…. Maybe I should Post my Address and hope that somebody would want to ‘silence’ me. You know, Ideals are great, but an Ideal and Eight Dollars and Thirty-Five cents will buy you a cup of cappuccino at Starbucks.)
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#19

Postby quietvoice » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:26 am

Leo Volont wrote: To use a Medical Analogy, it is important to Diagnose a Disease without being required to also come up with a Cure at the very same time. Sometimes “You are Sick and you are going to Die” is all that can be said. So sometimes the Rational and Discerning Insight is to Realize that there IS NO FIX. The Biggest Problem of All the Problems is that the Problem has NO SOLUTION.

Allow me to let you in on the greatest secret . . . it seems to be a secret, because so few people know about it, including the so-called experts to which the majority are listening and by which they are being programmed. That secret is that there's no such thing as disease. The bodily pains from which people suffer are caused by a backed up bathroom (the lymphatic system). Clean the bathroom, and experience freedom from these pains that are so prevalent.

Check out the YouTube channels of robertmorsend and John Rose. Enjoy!!!
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#20

Postby Leo Volont » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:51 am

quietvoice wrote:
Leo Volont wrote: To use a Medical Analogy, it is important to Diagnose a Disease without being required to also come up with a Cure at the very same time. Sometimes “You are Sick and you are going to Die” is all that can be said. So sometimes the Rational and Discerning Insight is to Realize that there IS NO FIX. The Biggest Problem of All the Problems is that the Problem has NO SOLUTION.

Allow me to let you in on the greatest secret . . . it seems to be a secret, because so few people know about it, including the so-called experts to which the majority are listening and by which they are being programmed. That secret is that there's no such thing as disease. The bodily pains from which people suffer are caused by a backed up bathroom (the lymphatic system). Clean the bathroom, and experience freedom from these pains that are so prevalent.

Check out the YouTube channels of robertmorsend and John Rose. Enjoy!!!


Dear QV

You do realize that that all that Medical Talk of mine was simply part of a Metaphor -- an "Analogy" as I carefully called it.

But to pick up on what you want to talk about, well, there certainly are diseases. Certainly there are millions of people who die from them every year. What you are trying to say, I suppose, is that there is an Easy Cure for them all. And you are not the only one with an idea about some Universally Easy Cure All. Since almost Forever there has been the Idea that Spirituality can link into some apparently Miraculous Healing Power. But, still, while you didn't go into much detail, it kind of goes without saying that a great many people do not have optimal diets or live particularly salubrious life styles. But still, when Doctors DO diagnosis actual diseases I can find no reason to doubt them. Liver failure IS liver failure. Kidney failure IS kidney failure. and if you are diagnosed with Congestive Heart Disease, or whatever they call it, then you shouldn't be surprised when you get that slamming pain in your left shoulder and you get light headed and fall down....never to get back up again.
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#21

Postby Leo Volont » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:55 am

Good Morning M. Freebeez,

Wow! We must have been writing at the same time because I posted just underneath you, but you can see that I was answering Richard.

Oh, you mentioned "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus". Yes, it is a famous book but I never read it and so I did a search for it in the Website of that Big Book Retailer Dot Com and read the Reviews. I was able to piece together enough to know that it was a Relationships Book that presented the contrasts between Male and Female Behaviors and Thought Patterns. I found that it was better accepted when it was first written, but now, in our much more Confrontational and Polarized Age many more people hate it. The Women now see it as humiliating and degrading to take a Man's Feelings and Inclinations into consideration -- with such comments as "If he doesn't want to be supportive while I am being weak, fussy, insecure, annoying and immature then He can go screw himself". They seem to miss the point of the Book, which is that I feel that all Relationship Books are biased toward trying to keep Relationships TOGETHER. People reading such Relationship Books generally go in to it with that same attitude -- willing to accept some unpleasant truths in order to arrive at their intended goal of keeping their tattered Relationships adequately patched up. And that describes you. Apparently your Relationship is very important to you. I can appreciate that. And that is SOMETHING coming from me. If you were to read any number of my historical Posts then you would soon discover that my First Advise to people who are experiencing Anger in an Optional Relationship is that they simply should Bail Out. I've even written unbidden Essays on the topic of why Relationships are Mostly Nothing But Trouble (especially for Angry People who are trying to mend their Ways). But you seemed settled on your Relationship, and even I have to admit that there is a percentage of Men who CAN thrive in Relationships and wouldn't enjoy their Independence even if they had it (though a lot of such men merely get lonely, in the emotional, companionship sense of the word, which could be fixed well enough if they just got a couple of dogs or a couple of cats. For instance, I used to date all the time, until I took in some scraggly overflow kitten from a Cat Lady's house where apparently she wasn't putting out enough food for everybody. the Little Thing accosted me in the parking lot and asked to be fed, and so I got it some food and fed it and it followed me home. There was a tree next to my window and it developed the habit of climbing up and asking to come in, and I would let it in. It would sit on the arm of the chair and we would watch TV together. After about 6 months I realized that my bank account and credit line were not in such horrible shape as they had been and wondered what had changed. Well, I wasn't going out as much! I wondered why and after hours of deep thought it occurred to me that I was staying home to watch TV with the Stupid Cat!... which I hadn't even ever thought about... it just happened that way. So, a lot of men might not need a Woman if they could only have a good dog or even a scraggle cat to just sit around and breath the same air).

Oh, but what is utterly fascinating in your Post is your advise for Richard. You know, now that you mention it, several years ago Richard did seem more objective and impartial with his advice, but with you now, and with others recently he has seemed to be taking things personally and behaving in a more adversarial way. I would expect that kind of behavior from me! I know it is Not Good and try to tone myself down in Editing when I catch myself becoming Hostile. So, yes, your advise to Richard might come as a good wake up call. This IS an Anger Management Forum and so we do owe it to Ourselves and our Readers to be as Dispassionate as possible without being totally Dull. But we need to remember that when you take the Edge off of what Richard said, it is a Viewpoint which you really need to consider. For instance, if I had the time I would be able to Edit what Richard said into a very sensible and compelling presentation, which you could only resist after a great deal of soul searching and the appraisal of mitigating details that Richard did not know about. But most people do not have the time for Editing. You know, it takes as long to Edit as to Write. Writing flies out of the typewriter like the wind, but editing is slow and tedious work. So we might have to look at Richard in perspective, to take the Value of what he says and leave out the Edge and the Sharpness under the rubric of "He Must Be Having a Really Crappy Day".
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#22

Postby quietvoice » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:41 am

Leo Volont wrote: What you are trying to say, I suppose, is that there is an Easy Cure for them all.

Simple, and most definitely not easy. If it were easy . . . well, you know how people are. It doesn't negate the truth of the matter though. Clean the lymphatic system, which is clogged from years and years of wrong living, and you will be free of these so-called "diseases."

Liver failure IS liver failure. Kidney failure IS kidney failure. and if you are diagnosed with Congestive Heart Disease, or whatever they call it, then you shouldn't be surprised when you get that slamming pain in your left shoulder and you get light headed and fall down....never to get back up again.

Liver and kidney failure is organ failure, not a diagnosed something called a disease. (Tell something over and over again to someone, and they'll believe it.) The congestive heart (congestion) implies what . . . a backed up lymph? Who is teaching the doctors, those poeple most people put their FAITH in, about the lymph system and how the clean it out? Cutting out, burning, and chemicalizing the offending symptoms of a backed up lymph system does not lead to health. A clean diet does.
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#23

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:04 pm

FreeBeez83 wrote:[
It irritates, not to say it hurts me (yes I am a sensitive little thing), and does not serve your purpose, which I guess is to be helpful. I you are willing to continue participating in a constructive manner to that thread, please take my remark into account.


Ah, so now you are the victim and I must modify my behavior for you? If I don't modify my behavior, you point out that it will not serve my purpose of being helpful. Why? Because as the victim you will shut down, you will stop listening? I must modify my behavior to appease your needs?

Let's try the reverse. You are the one that needs help, not me. You are the one that needs to modify how you interact with people and improve your inability to resolve your relationship issues. You are the one needing to change what you believe about how the world is suppose to work. You are the one that needs to modify you being oh so sensitive that you become a victim of words typed on a computer screen from a person you don't even know.

I don't expect your sensitivities to change immediately or as a result of this single response, but think about what you are asking. Why must the world change for you? Why are you a victim? What makes you so sensitive and how might that be a barrier to your ability to handle an adult throwing tantrums in your life?
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#24

Postby Leo Volont » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:52 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:........
I don't expect your sensitivities to change immediately or as a result of this single response, but think about what you are asking. Why must the world change for you? Why are you a victim? What makes you so sensitive and how might that be a barrier to your ability to handle an adult throwing tantrums in your life?
.......


Good Morning Richard,

Again, you prove to be most intelligent, insightful and discerning. I honestly thought that M. Freebeez had caught you in a slip. But, then again, I think you are pushing M. Freebeez to a Level which we could scarcely expect from somebody whose Background consists entirely of having read "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus". Yes, the only reason I can point this out to you is that I have had the same reflections in regards to myself. I often push fairly hard on the New Members who come in complaining of Anger Issues. My feeling was, at the time, that if they sincerely want our help then they must be willing to do their part. After all, sitting down and writing instructive essays for their benefit doesn't come easy. they are getting our individual attention. And, you know, we are Educated People here. If they were Paying for our Time it wouldn't come all that cheap. So it is Legitimate to ask them to stretch a bit and push to cut through their tendency for Denial and to work to Keep Up with the Program. But when I had pushed too hard, then it is like I chased them away, and these Angry People went back to their Angry Lives and who knows how many people are now putting up with their Crap because I failed to get through to them. So it is a kind of a balancing act, we have to be doing.

But, as I always say, YOU are very discerning. You are undoubtedly a better judge of character than I am. maybe you see that you have M. Freebeez hooked and that he will stick around like a malleable metal to be pounded into the right shape. Its true that I had gotten him all wrong and guessed all sorts of stuff about him that was frankly insulting to his true character, and he was quite understanding and easy going about it. this Guy does not ruffle easy. We are used to dealing with Angry People, and this Guy is NOT Angry. So he WON'T leave us in some Angry Huff because we insulting his Dignity or whatever. He is Rational and he Thinks coolly about things.

But he is also Very Committed to his Relationship and we can expect that he is on his 'tippytoes' not to push his Lady Friend over the edge. He has told us that she had told him that She Worries about Him leaving Her. But if He really believed that, then he would be more secure in Demanding that She start Behaving Herself or He WILL Leave. But the way he is going through all this, we can infer that he must believe that he is somehow on "thin ice" with her. So I guess he is Bulking at your Advice and arguing against it because he must feel that it is Impractical or Dangerous to his Relationship to implement it. Remember, this guy's only 'background' is some Stupid Relationship Book that was probably written more to Pander to and Exploit the Relationships' Market than to actually be Clinically Valid about anything. He wasn't Born Yesterday, but pretty darn close.

Anyway, I would never bet against you knowing what you are doing. But for my tact I will try to be engaging and attempt to walk him slowly through the rough stuff.

Oh, I took a break for a moment to make myself a little breakfast and it occurred to me, that this is a relatively Low Risk Case. If we fail to reach M. Freebeez, it is not like we are unleashing some unhinged maniac upon the World. He is really a Nice Guy and the only trouble we would expect is to Himself. His Angry Ladyfriend has the good sense to Inhibit her Anger at the Work Place and in Social Circles. and she saves it all to dump on Him who seems perfectly will to take it. So the Damage being done is Isolated, Contained and Tolerable. But, yes, we can still feel sorry for them. He is sort of like the Nice Old Man you see in the park who has a nippy barking temperamental little demon of a Pomeranian that pushes away his friends and discourages any possible new friends. But we KNOW that if he would only assert just a few easy Training Tricks, then the dog would behave 95% better and even be happier for it. Now, of course this sounds as though I am suggesting that Men train their Lady Friends like they are Dogs, which sounds positively horrible, I know. But for Relationships to work certain dysfunctional and outlying patterns of behavior should be modified. With Human Beings we call it Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and with Dogs we call it Training. Human Beings, after all, must protect their Dignity with Big Academic Sounding Words.

Hmmmm, I've just been thinking again about M. Freebeez's Angry Lady Friend. A moment ago I gave her credit for Inhibiting All her Anger against Everybody and Everything except M. Freebeez. Well, it only took only a few minutes for my Mind to go into Complete Rebellion over that Notion. Anger, from my experience, doesn't stay that well contained. As people repeat Angry Behavior more and more, it becomes more and more chronic. It is bound to spread. Simple Force of Habit will have her beginning to snap at people in general. 'Nice Guys' would be her first victims but as she seems to 'get away with it' she will spread out to expressing her irritable peevishness to an ever widening circle. So I suppose we really should up the Priority for M. Freebeez by a few more notches. And this would make it a peculiar Case for us. We are in effect trying to help One Angry Person through the agency of someone else, who really has no background or experience in Anger Management. We are like the Control Tower trying to "Talk Down" a 747 with Dentist or an Accountant at the controls. Dentists and Accountants aren't stupid, but they know nothing about Aviation and Flight Theory and Practice. It makes it a test of our ability to explain the Complex so that it can be Easily Understood.

that makes it interesting, doesn't it?
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#25

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:40 pm

Hey Leo, I always enjoy your rather in depth thought process. My thoughts:

-1- I'm not trying to help an angry person through the OP. If his GF was in here asking for advice I would give it. All I'm doing is participating in a public forum, giving the best advice I can.

-2- Given it is a public forum and not a private therapy session, I'm giving the best advice I can that is not only for the eyes of the OP. There might be others out there with similar issues. I'm not treating the OP or the general audience as victims or patients that need to be carefully handled and slowly brought into the real world. They need direct advice, not filtered for a particular person's allergies to how another person presents their opinions. If my advice is too harsh for his sensitivities, then he needs to reflect on how he will face actual problems in life, how will he face real challenges? An adult you are dating for only a year throwing temper tantrums is not one of life's really difficult dilemmas.

-3- I might agree with you that he feels somehow he is on some form of "thin ice" with this relationship. Maybe not...maybe he sees himself playing the white knight and is perfectly comfortable she will not leave him. He has stated how worried she is after a tantrum is thrown. He seems in control, playing enabling therapist while she gets to play patient. But maybe the "thin ice" is the fear that his efforts as white knight will be fruitless, unable to help his damsel in distress. He fears the relationship ending, but the fear is based in reasons other than her leaving.

-4- The OP wants others to change while avoiding change himself. He wants ways to modify his GFs behaviors, but when it is suggested he take actions that require he modify his beliefs, that require he changes he balks. Because he is sensitive, he wants me to change my behavior, so that once again he can keep his beliefs intact about how the world actually works verses how he would like it to work in his ideal knight/damsel belief system.

Ultimately I think there is nothing really new or surprising with this thread. It is very common for people to ask for advice about how they might go about changing someone else and then get defensive when the advice is more about challenging their own beliefs and changing themselves verses the person they want to change. IMO the reaction of the OP is quite normal, expected, and inline with the standard defense, "You are wrong" then "I don't like how you say it."
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#26

Postby Leo Volont » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:58 am

Hi Richard,

I am glad that you like my rambling thought processes. I suspect that a great many of the Tweet Generation don’t have the patience to go through more than a sentence or two of my desultory wanderings (I’ve heard that Modern College textbooks try to put the most important facts in the Bullet Format because often that is the only thing the Students will read. Can you imagine the Literature Department putting “Wuthering Heights” into the Bullet Format… < Heathcliff can be a real Dickhead Sometimes > it loses a lot of it Poetry!).

Oh, I like what you said about often writing with 3rd Parties in mind – that more than just the “OP” will be reading these Things. It is nice to THINK that anybody reads this Stuff, but in your case at least you can rely upon me to take the time. I believe you are a great deal more grounded than I am and I am often startled by the aptness of your remarks. And I HOPE I am learning from you. If in the coming years you see me becoming gradually more sensible, then congratulate yourself because it will have been all entirely owing to your influence. Likewise, if you start behaving like some old crank, I will pat myself on the back.

You seem to be doing your work here on the Forum as an Individualist. I tend to see the Forum as a System… a carry-over from the way I used to think about Things when I used to work for a living. Yes, I try to help each New Member, and I am never sure who else might chime in, but see every added voice as an additional means of ‘sounding out’ the Poster. For instance, with M. Freebeez. We learned something when you were able to make him say “Ouch”. You have probably noticed it with my General Approach, that I am often quite ‘clumsy’ with New Members and ‘accidentally’ and ‘inadvertently’ become untactful or even borderline rude… not enough to chase them away, but enough to test whether, as an admitted Angry Person, they are operating on an extremely light ‘hair trigger’. A certain amount of Probing must be done just to know whom one is trying to help. When there is more than one Member Joining into the Fray, a lot of this Probing becomes much easier. And it takes a lot of the System Pressure off of any one Member. I’ve noticed a few of our most steady Members coming in for the rescue when I had been obviously fumbling the ball on some of these Threads. Knowing I am not alone takes a lot of the pressure off.

Yes, and you have been here since a long time before I ever showed up. You’ve seen a lot more than I have. (As we used to tell the New Guys at Work, “I’ve forgotten more than you know”… which doesn’t make much sense but sounds cool). With experience comes a sense of intuition… even inspiration – the right ‘hunches’ seem to come out of nowhere. All that comes in Time. You can’t push Experience… well, there is Practice Practice Practice… but it is difficult to ‘practice’ Forum Work. You can only do what comes along. I’ve been working Math as a hobby since I got Downsized, in hopes of a second career. Oh! It’s been almost exactly 3 years now (I had to think about it). Finally I am getting ‘hunches’ about Math. I was wondering if Practice Practice Practice was ever going to kick in there. With Music, I have been practicing ‘by ear’ playing on a number of instruments since I was a very young man (certainly before most of our posters were born) and I hunch up all the time with that… it’s hard to go through a Song without getting some neat new idea for it. Some of my professional Musician friends say that they work to standardize the way they play a song, playing it the same way each time. I just laugh! Unless you are Brain Dead or a Parrot how could that ever possibly be a Good Thing!? But I have to admit that most of my Musician friends are strictly second rate – Cover Band Guys trying to sound just like the Record. I try to tell them that it wouldn’t hurt to sound Better than the Record, but they seem to think that those Hits are some kind of Perfect Ideal. But even Well Produced Record Tracks were Time Constrained Rush Jobs done on some kind of a Limited Budget. I don’t think there is a good Record Producer alive who doesn’t think heorshe could have done better with any of hisorher Projects if given another week in the studio and fifty thousand more dollars to play with, even when it comes to hisorher Super Hits. Life is a Moving Target.

Well, let’s wait to see what M. Freebeez comes up with next.
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#27

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:11 pm

Leo Volont wrote:You seem to be doing your work here on the Forum as an Individualist. I try to help each New Member, and I am never sure who else might chime in, but see every added voice as an additional means of ‘sounding out’ the Poster.


In my opinion, noncomformist is a better label than individualist. I like the Twitter observation and have commented below.

As for being an individualist, I can't count how many times I have repeated to members that this a public forum and that everyone has the right to participate. It is a community effort. Without others expressing their opinions it makes it difficult to judge relative value.

As for the self-imposed label of noncomformist as it relates to this particular venue, I conform to the rules of the forum, i.e. I do not attack an individual and do not discuss political/religious topics, etc. But, the rules of the forum are not adequate enough for some. They want you to conform to their beliefs or for you to remain silent until you learn better how to not offend their sensitivities. I have seen you rub people the wrong way. So what? Are you to alter your opinion, conform to how some other individual wants their personal little bubble of a world to work? Heck no!!! The value of the forum is about the variety of discourse in both substance and delivery. The real world doesn't take place in a germ free glass bubble. This takes me to the Twitter/social media observation.

Delete me, unfollow me, ignore me. That is an unfortunate aspect of social media that is creating a generation that lacks critical thinking skills. People create their own echo chambers. M. Freebeez is just one example of this mentality or world view. I don't like your opinion and/or delivery so if I can't shut you down, if I can't get you to conform then I will go elsewhere and find people that agree with me and give me the good feeling I am seeking. It has astounding appeal at an emotional level, but has unfortunate consequences when it creates individuals that can't figure out how to get out of a wet paper bag.

Personally, I enjoy imagining this forum like those of the past. Sometimes I imagine a town square with a box people stood on to express their opinions. Other times I think of Ancient Greece, people sitting around arguing, discussing face to face, thinking how the others ideas are ignorant. I don't see it as an individualist approach. And certainly a person could leave back then if they liked, but where would they find their echo chamber where everyone conformed to their sensitivities? They didn't have a 1,000 places to run and hide.

Here is one of my favorite research articles on argumentation. In the article it talks about the benefits of emotion or passion in argumentation. You don't run and hide when you don't like another person's tone. That negates some of the positive aspects of discourse. People do themselves a disservice when they run, but unfortunately the Internet has made running away all too easy.

http://www.dan.sperber.fr/wp-content/up ... reason.pdf
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#28

Postby Leo Volont » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:20 am

Good Morning Richard,

Thanks for the URL to the PDF of that Paper on Reasoning. Wow, the thing is a book! I tried to save it but couldn’t find the menu so I shortcutted the URL to my Desktop. I scanned through it to see what it was. Even after it is finished there followed peer review essays. The thing is really like a FREE College Textbook and you know how much those things can nick you for.

But, yes, apparently one of the big problems with ‘reasoned’ arguments is Confirmation Bias where people basically line up all their mental resources to support what they already believe or want to believe. I’ve been lucky in my life that for some reason I have a Long Memory for other people’s arguments which tend to haunt me and I can’t just shake them off. Yes, I am only human and fall subject to Confirmation Bias like everybody else, but unlike people with short memories for such things, with me there seems to be some Area of my Brain that somehow becomes the Advocate for Old Arguments and so when I experience Life Situations or Read or Learn New Things, and that Old Argument seems to be therefore Supported and Affirmed, well, I remember that also and it sort of creates a Tally Board in my Head – Points For and Points Against the Old Argument. I’m Not Even Trying to do stuff like that. My Head just doesn’t let those kinds of things drop. Anyway, it doesn’t happen very often, but I have Changed My Mind about things. Often it takes YEARS for that to happen, and that is why I think that being a Rational Intellectual really does require a Good Memory.

Oh! That Persistent ‘Running’Tally Board in my Head may have been responsible for my finally addressing my Anger Issues. Many Angry People Self Justify their Anger. You know, everyone has a ‘Reason’ why they get Angry. It takes one who keeps a Steady Tally of Pros and Cons to realize that one’s very own ‘reasons’ for getting Angry really aren’t good enough. Oh, it’s sort of like the “Sunk Cost” Fallacy mentioned in that paper (“throwing Good Money After Bad”) where people obviously have strong practical or emotional investments in things and don’t wish to abandon them, but if you remain alert and attentive you must eventually see that you are simply digging deeper into the hole. AND, Unless you can Remember Yesterday that kind of Realization would never occur to you.

Oh, there is a pet Theory that I have. It is that some people are actually Unconscious, or more precisely, unreflective. Yes, they seem to respond to external stimuli, but when you follow their behavior over time, one is impressed by the suspicion that ‘they aren’t thinking about it’, that they are behaving like an automated system. It is like they are Perfect Zen Masters who live continuously in the NOW with not reference at all to the past. They repeat the same behaviors over and over again whether the Trend Line is Up or Down. I guess that is one of the Reasons I HATE the New Age Doctrines. Ostensibly the New Age ‘claims’ to be about ‘Awakening’ but from most of what I see, it is simply about making people comfortable with themselves. Peace through Complacency. Thinking is Suffering so stop Thinking. People talk about Buddhism. You know, we don’t need to go back thousands of years to find out what spoiled rich kids think. Anyway, there are some people who seem to be Naturally Unconscious and then you have the New Age People who actively Train themselves to be Unconscious, AND in a great many Cases THESE are the People who Get Angry. If you step in the Way of their Programmed Responses, it frustrates their Automatic Guidance Systems and jumps them off the Track they were following like a Train on its Rails, and so they Lash Out. Maybe that is the closest they come to ‘Waking Up’ – being “Knocked ‘Conscious’”, as I once heard it said. Oh, that reminds me that I once knew a Sleep Walker. The way you KNEW he was a sleep walker is that if you started a conversation with him while he was sleep walking he would Scream at the Top of his Lungs for you to “SHUT UP!”. From that I inferred that he was still sleeping and did not wish to be awakened, albeit he was walking around the complex at the time. If you keep an eye on a Sleep Walker, usually they are just up to make a trip to the washroom or to pick up a snack from somewhere and they traipse back to bed. But the Close to Rage response seems to suggest the analogy to ordinary anger in a lot of these people who appear to be effectively unconscious or unreflective – if it looks like you are trying to wake them up, they snap at you. Oh, incidentally, not ALL sleep walkers are so ‘touchy’. My Mother had told me that I sometimes had slept walked when I was a teenager. She said I appeared to be behaving strangely but I was always well enough behaved. Apparently I would respond to other people but do so without my usual elaborations, as though I was very preoccupied. She only knew I was sleep walking because she was a clever old girl and knew how to ask questions without actually asking questions, that is, she could guide conversations until she knew everything she wanted to know, and so she KNEW when I had no recall of certain events that transpired when I would be taking a nap, get up and leave my room for a while, and go back to taking my nap again.

Oh, I agree with you about the Dangers to our Civilization of people Self-Isolating into Homogenous Thinking Zones. After all, the Lucky Trait I have of being forever Haunted by Old Arguments would never have done me much good had I never Heard Those Arguments to begin with. Oh, but I must confess that I did take my B.A. Degree from a very good College of a splendid Old University. The Professors there insisted that nobody ever be settled in and Comfortable with ANY Idea. As I implied before, Intellectual Complacency is the Enemy to any true Situational Understanding or Reliable Cognitive Discernment. Some people say that B.A. Degrees aren’t worth the Sheep Skin they’re written on, but, no, I have not found that to be the case at all. I don’t think I’d be nearly the man I am today if I stayed one of those people who insist that they don’t need no college to prove how smart they are. Of course, not all Colleges are created equal, and so it might be a good idea to apply the tried and true Rule about the Comparative Quality of the various Colleges, that a College’s Quality is Inversely Proportional to its Distance from an Ocean.

But, yes, Richard, thanks for the Paper.
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#29

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:53 pm

Hi Leo,

Two thoughts...

Some people say that B.A. Degrees aren’t worth the Sheep Skin they’re written on, but, no, I have not found that to be the case at all.


Your degree is probably worth more than most, relatively speaking. This is based on two fundamental realities:

-1- I'm assuming you obtained your degree some time ago, several decades ago. During that time, degrees were based more on merit. You had to demonstrate you knew the material. There have been some recent studies that have confirmed a lessening of standards and corresponding rise in overall grades, including many students believing that regardless of test performance, they should receive a minimum of a "B" in class as long as they attend. It is like getting a participation trophy. Professors are pressured to give grades to students as to keep them from failing out. It is part of the "no child left behind" ideology, applied to university adults.

-2- The Internet is quickly making education much more affordable and accessible. I have over 37,000 students in 185 countries thanks to technology. There is no way I could have reached that many students in such a short span of a few years teaching in a brick and mortar school. It becomes a simple issue of supply and demand. The ability to supply education to the masses is going way, way up as learning online is becoming more accepted. As more people are educated in a particular field, it drives the value of that education down. More B.A.s on the market equal reduced value.

Leo Volont wrote:But, yes, apparently one of the big problems with ‘reasoned’ arguments is Confirmation Bias


That is what the article contradicts, explaining how bias developed, the purpose of bias, and the benefits of bias.

Using the article, my version of the argument goes something like this: Our hearts, lungs, kidneys...our eyes, our ears...we have all of these amazing organs that are generally speaking born without defect. None of our organs are born already defective. Why then, would our brain be an exception? Why would this organ be already wired to make errors in judgment, to be biased from the very beginning? It is not differences in nature. It is not differences in the environment or situation, as cognitive bias has been shown to exist universally across all cultures, genders, ethnicities, etc.

While most research looks at bias as either neutral or a negative, foul, dirty, four-letter word, the article I shared takes a different approach. It discusses what could be the possible adaptive benefits of bias.

One main conclusion that is drawn is that bias serves the community and in doing so also serves the individual. For instance, imagine our ancestors in a small tribe trying to decide whether to leave an area or go to war with a neighboring tribe that is threatening to invade. You argue we should leave and I argue we stay and fight, a third person, tribesmen Freebeez argues we should attack first.

Bias creates conflict, as you have your biased opinion, I have mine and Freebeez has his. Passionately we defend our beliefs. It is not purely an act of strict logic, but rather there is emotion involved as we all confirm our beliefs, digging up information to support our point of view, trying to gain allies and refuting the others point of view. We are all biased, opinionated, and we argue with intensity! Such a horrible existence, right?

The benefit of all of this bias, is that the elders of the tribe, the council that will make the decision gain access to much more information and of higher quality that looks at all angles of the overall situation. This leads to a better group decision. They don't just get one persons surface level opinion followed by a shrug of the shoulders saying, "Leave, stay, attack, who cares?"

From the Article:

"When a group has to solve a problem, it is much more efficient if each individual looks mostly for arguments sup- porting a given solution. They can then present these argu- ments to the group, to be tested by the other members. This method will work as long as people can be swayed by good arguments, and the results reviewed in section 2 show that this is generally the case. This joint dialogic approach is much more efficient than one where each individual on his or her own has to examine all possible solutions carefully.8 The advantages of the confirmation bias are even more obvious given that each participant in a discussion is often in a better position to look for arguments in favor of his or her favored solution (situations of asymmetrical infor- mation). So group discussions provide a much more effi- cient way of holding the confirmation bias in check."

"If people are skilled at both producing and evaluating arguments, and if these skills are displayed most easily in argumentative settings, then debates should be especially conducive to good reasoning performance."

"While participants in collective experimental tasks typically produce arguments in favor of a variety of hypotheses, most or even all of which are false, they concur in recognizing sound arguments. Since these tasks have a demonstrably valid solution, truth does indeed win."
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