Did I fall asleep or do I just not remember?

Postby moonlightress » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:15 pm

(Newbie at being hypnotized, nightly for about a month now.)

I've been listening to a free self-esteem audio-file online, by a doctor of clinical hypnotherapy. It recommends you listen to it for 21 consecutive days. Low self-esteem has dogged me most of my life, so I'm very motivated. It was from freehypnosisclinic /self-esteem/ (spam filter doesn't like the url. :)

The first 2 nights I listened, I remembered everything afterwards. The voice and anchor made a deep impression on me, actually it all did. I had tears rolling down my face, it spoke so directly and compassionately to my problems.

The third time, I remember the induction, going under pretty quickly and the start of the therapeutic part. He repeats the anchor many times in the induction, so I went deep, fast. Then I remember a bit in the middle (wondered vaguely what happened to the first part, but let it go). The next I remembered was near the end, again vaguely wondering where the previous bit had gone, and then the wake-up came.

I thought I'd fallen asleep. I was pretty tired that evening, before I went to bed, so I figured I'd dropped off a few times. I played the session again (I really, really want to benefit from this!), remembering almost everything this time.

The same thing happened on the 4th night. This time, I wasn't tired, just lying on my bed. Again I went deep, fast. I remember the start, different bits in 2 places and then the wake-up, nothing else. I thought it was odd.

1. Did I fall asleep the 3rd and 4th time, or was I subconsciously aware and just don't remember?
2. If I was aware, why do I not remember? Was it because I knew the script, and what he was going to say? Or because I was very deep?
3. I assume that if I fell asleep, I wouldn't benefit (is this so?) so should I repeat the session again, like I did the 3rd night? Or can I trust that my subconscious was listening and just not be concerned that I don't remember?

Sorry, that turned into more than just one question! :) I'm about to do the 5th time tonight.
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#1

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:23 pm

Like anything we learn repetition lowers cognitive load, e.g. the first time you drive a car everything is conscious and effortful, but over time you lose awareness of turning the wheel while pressing the gas.

The first time you listen to a song or audio cognitive load is high as you attend to the words. As you listen again and again, cognitive load is reduced as you already know the words and what comes next. It makes it easier to drift off.
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#2

Postby moonlightress » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:38 pm

Thanks for reply. :)

By "drift off" do you mean "drift off to sleep" or that cognition drifts off and sub-conscious is still aware?
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#3

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:04 pm

To sleep
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#4

Postby moonlightress » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:10 pm

Meaning that I'm not actually benefitting from the sessions? :(
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#5

Postby moonlightress » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:16 pm

I appreciate your replies, Richard. Do you have any advice about what I could do, where this is concerned?
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#6

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:22 pm

Benefiting?

Hypnosis has shown to have benefits like the placebo effect in reducing stress/anxiety. It helps people believe what they wish to believe.

Learning? No. Hypnosis doesn’t help people learn what they wish to learn, e.g. you don’t learn a foreign language via hypnosis.

Self-esteem is generally improved by engaging in the specific activities the person fears. Having less anxiety can benefit that activity, hence hypnosis can help a person be less anxious about using a foreign language in public, but not with the actual conversation.
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#7

Postby moonlightress » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:38 pm

Okay. I found the last answer rather cryptic. It reminds me of my orthopedics lecturer who never gives a straight answer to any question, but talks all around it, so you end up just googling it yourself, instead of asking. Except I already tried to google this question :D

It's generally true that "Self-esteem is generally improved by engaging in the specific activities the person fears." Although I'd be more inclined to use "self-confidence" in that sentence, self-esteem being a little different. But I engage in these activities several times a week, and still feel inadequate every time. Hence my hoping, that a little chat with my subconscious, while my critical cognition has gone fishing, might assist me. :D :D

I just listened for the 5th time. Got all teary again, like the first 2. I remember it all, but there was a part of me in the background watching out for not falling asleep. That can't be helpful.

Anyway, I'll just keep at it.
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#8

Postby ScottsdaleHypnosis » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:01 pm

Once you practice the hypnotic state, it becomes easier to "go there".

Therefore in a one-on-one setting your hypnotist will be looking for signs of your transe depth.

That doesn't happen with recordings.

If you look up Arons Depth Level (6 Levels)

You'll see first 3 have memory, next 3 have amnesia to it.
You were in the 4th level or deeper when you couldn't remember.
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#9

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:34 pm

moonlightress wrote:... self-esteem being a little different. But I engage in these activities several times a week, and still feel inadequate every time. Hence my hoping, that a little chat with my subconscious, while my critical cognition has gone fishing, might assist me.


I agree, confidence and esteem are different. Both have roots in Latin, confidentia meaning trust or rely on, and aestimare meaning value. Self-esteem is how we value ourselves. Yet the two are inseparable in that it is difficult to value what you can't rely on and there is no reason to rely on something that has no value.

How do we value ourselves? There are typically three ways:
-1- By comparing ourselves to others.
-2- By comparing ourselves to an external measure, usually set by a governing body.
-3- By comparing ourselves to ourselves, i.e. the self of today against the self of yesterday.

Using #1 and #2 can be counterproductive in competitive or negative environments. If you are constantly told you have no or limited value, if you are constantly compared to others or expect to achieve some external measure that is well beyond your current abilities then low self-esteem is the result.

Only #3 can reliably build self-esteem over time. You set the standard today and you improve upon that tomorrow. Your value rises. Still, to improve requires a degree of reliance, meaning self-confidence in action. Your ability to add value doesn't happen in a vacuum. You must be able to point to something today that was an improvement over yesterday by your own estimation. This is not right or wrong, simply how value works by definition.

...but there was a part of me in the background watching out for not falling asleep. That can't be helpful.


From a hypnotic perspective it probably isn't helpful, but from a goal perspective it most certainly doesn't hurt. Studies show when faced with an unresolved problem or yet to achieve goal, our minds will continue to work on the problem below the level of consciousness. On the other hand, if you resolve the problem or decide to entirely disengage, the mind will equally surrender. This is a form of the Zeigarnik Effect.

Anyway, I'll just keep at it.


Great. Just consider that thinking about your aestimare won't actually raise your aestimare without confidentia, meaning thought without structured practice is unlikely to lead to much success. You want to address both.
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#10

Postby ScottsdaleHypnosis » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:56 pm

The power of hypnosis for athletes wanting to excel is documented. But since everyone is an individual it is quite difficult to quantify certain things. So even saying that you can't speak the language better after hypnosis can be inaccurate. I've done sessions where a nursing student who flunked her test, without any study, was retaken with one of the highest grades. In both she had good sleep, etc. What was different. It's difficult to understand the powerful impact of hypnosis, and as a student of it, I would never say what it does and doesn't do. I've taken a jaundice patient out of a coma. She was neon yellow and I watched as the metaphorical waterfall returned her body parts to normal, as I named each part the waterfall was clearing. Why does that happen? There are mysteries to hypnosis that we will still be uncovering in the years ahead.
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#11

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:41 pm

ScottsdaleHypnosis wrote: But since everyone is an individual it is quite difficult to quantify certain things.


Which is why hypnosis is unfortunately most often associated with pseudo-science.

Given quantification is possible in a wide range of medical fields, regardless of the individual...it reduces the perceived credibility of hypnosis. When hypnosis experiments struggle to replicate, but other treatment options are reliably replicated, it makes hypnosis a less attractive option.

In my opinion there is a disconnect between the researchers that publish scientifically validated uses of hypnosis and practitioners.

For instance, the popular use of hypnosis for ceasing smoking. Controlled studies involving thousands of participants have time and again showed hypnosis is ineffective or weak at best in comparison to other treatment options.

http://bscw.rediris.es/pub/nj_bscw.cgi/ ... sation.pdf

Main results
Eleven studies compared hypnotherapy with 18 different control interventions. There was significant heterogeneity between the results of the individual studies, with conflicting results for the effectiveness of hypnotherapy compared to no treatment, or to advice, or psychological treatment. We did not attempt to calculate pooled risk ratios for the overall effect of hypnotherapy. There was no evidence of a greater effect of hypnotherapy when compared to rapid smoking or psychological treatment. Direct comparisons of hypnotherapy with cessation treatments considered to be effective had confidence intervals that were too wide to infer equivalence.

Authors’ conclusions
We have not shown that hypnotherapy has a greater effect on six-month quit rates than other interventions or no treatment. There is not enough evidence to show whether hypnotherapy could be as effective as counselling treatment. The effects of hypnotherapy on smoking cessation claimed by uncontrolled studies were not confirmed by analysis of randomized controlled trials.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... 2.wbecp520

In terms of habits and psychological conditions, hypnosis appears to provide better outcomes than no treatment for smoking but it does not appear to be superior to rapid smoking or other psychological treatments.
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#12

Postby Joe100 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:00 am

Moonlight,

Something you should know. A long time ago, this board was very active with many brilliant hynotists and hypnotherapists frequenting it.

In the more recent past, it has gone pretty quiet, with the very occasional burst of activity. It's tough to get a good answer from people who actually have good answers.

Sadly this has left a vacuum, where twats like Richard answer every post with an obnoxious and condescending attitude and get no pushback. He is also pretty ignorant about hypnosis, and is generally spectacularly unhelpful.

You can safely ignore everything he says.

Hopefully someone like Jimmy, or Jargan, or another old timer will chime in and say intelligent things to answer your very valid questions.

I'll go back to sleep now.

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#13

Postby ScottsdaleHypnosis » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:02 am

I'm sorry. You're just misinformed. There are hypnotists with 95% successful smoking cessation rates in the country. I know first hand. Ken Guzzo has done over 5,000 with that success rate.

I was trained by him, and for the past 2 years, I haven't lost one.
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#14

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:31 am

Moonlightress

Be careful with claims by practitioners of what hypnosis will or will not accomplish. Verify by asking for the actual research. Don’t fall for personal claims of amazing results. Many practitioners get defensive when the effectiveness of hypnosis is questioned.

There are benefits of hypnosis validated in controlled studies.

The below link is a practitioner that in my opinion is highly qualified, well informed, and recognizes the current limits of hypnosis. As a practitioner the author is biased slightly, but I think does a fair job.

Note what is stated about self-esteem. This is important for you. The author notes self-esteem is improved, but not because of hypnosis. Instead, self-esteem improves as a result of mastering a new skill.

When it comes to hypnosis, buyer beware.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/D_ ... nxiety.pdf

Conclusion
This review has demonstrated that the inclusion of hypnosis with other treatment modalities (e.g., CBT or acupuncture) commonly improves the outcomes obtained by the other therapeutic modali-ties alone. It has been further shown that self-hypnosis training and practice results in improvements in physiological measures (e.g., heart rate) and has the potential to enhance immune function as it reduces stress. Hypnosis has also been shown to have comparable effects in comparison with well-established treatments, such as progressive relaxation. Considerable evidence exists that training in self-hypnosis not only reduces generalized stress, but is also effective in reducing anx-iety associated with public speaking, test taking and coping after being diagnosed with cancer, as well as in reducing anxiety expe-rienced by burn patients and those going through childbirth. The evidence is especially compelling regarding the ability of hypnosis to significantly reduce anxiety associated with a variety of surgical, medical and dental procedures (e.g., incisional biopsy, venepunc-ture, having radiological and imaging procedures, dentistry or oral surgery). Self-hypnosis training has been documented to produce improvements in stress related medical conditions, such as ten-sion headaches, migraines and IBS, and in reducing the frequency of anxiety-provoked herpes outbreaks. Ressults also demonstrate that the process of learning self-hypnosis commonly increases self-esteem and perceptions of self-efficacy from having developed a self-mastery skill.
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