How fight this?

#45

Postby Leo Volont » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:55 pm

Guess what? wrote:Then i report a couple of examples:

1. The best friend of the girl always said that i was a good guy. Now he doubt of it and sometimes treat me as an enemy. I think he (they) think that i'm a false person who want to seem good but actually is a beast.

2. If i'm having fun with a girl and this (maybe cause she is drunk, just an esample) says "stop borring me" i can be easy going and say yes;but then she will think that she was on the right side, while maybe i didnt anything of bad or evil


Good Morning Guess What,

Wow! I finally broke ‘100’ on Likes! Cooh, huh? Oh, about being an easy going, nice cheerful and polite member of a society of young adult savages, well, yeah, I think it is over all your best strategy in the long run. Remember, as they all get older they will be moving in the same direction, but you just got there first. As for your changed behavior, well, its easy enough to explain. Tell them you were catching too much flack for being a troublemaker and so you went out and bought a book. Heck, young people instantly changing their style because of one fad or another is common, isn’t it? And as I said before, your really not the center of anybody’s thinking, as they are thinking mostly about themselves. Yes, at times you will seem marginalized within the group, probably because the ‘group mind’ is focused on something else. This suggests something else you can begin doing. You can try to guess about what may be affecting the mindset of people you are dealing with besides yourself. You know, they may have been irritable before you even showed up. Watch and see whether they are short and quarrelsome with other of their ‘friends’ too? Also, you should think about how your friends “treating you like enemies” effects your friendship with them. It doesn’t make you like them any better, does it? This is why, if you want to stay with that crowd, that you should not retaliate. Often in social groups, an insult that is not acknowledged and returned, kind for kind, is treated as a mis-fire… a none event. Friendships do not end over some rude comment, made in the spur of the moment, that is simply ignored as being part of the ‘group noise floor’. But make a big deal about it, and that might lead to them ostracizing you, or you, out of pride, ostracizing them. For anything this significant to happen, it requires “making a scene”, and that is why I counsel against ever ‘making scenes’.

Now, as to the languid lady who would say “go away, you bore me”, like a line from a 1930’s black and white movie. Well, okay. That happens. I used to socialize a lot out on the club scene. I would start a conversation with somebody, but usually a small table of people, and give it only about 15 or 20 seconds and watch for whether they turned in my direction, or made eye contact, and whether they made more than a single syllable acknowledgment that I was trying to talk to them. If I noticed that my initiative was not being encouraged then I would not force it and I would wish their table a good evening, smile and move on. Often times, it would be a matter of them not knowing me well, and that the next time I spoke to them I would be better received. Also, there are situations where somebody does pick up on your conversation, but that you feel a kind of passive aggressiveness. This is usually in the form of someone’s humorless their questions that are spoken with too much of a smile, sort of like they want to play cat and mouse with you. That is also a sign that you are not welcome and that you should excuse yourself with the necessity for mingling, smile, and leave. Oh, and keep in mind that if somebody is being passive aggressive with you, then they are probably being passive aggressive with other people too, especially the ‘friends’ you see them with, so if you see the same people, minus the person who gave you the hard time, you might approach them again, and see if your reception is any different.

So, yes, being socially popular is a game of percentages. You can never please everybody. But still the best odds are in the favor of those who are friendly. Also, Guess What, has it ever occurred to you that you are mixing with a rather obnoxious set of misfits and lowlifes, and that you would not be doing yourself any favors by bending over backwards to ‘fit in’ with them. Remember, there are Social Circles out there that are comprised of much better people, and somehow, someday, you might happen to cross paths with such people, and you may be ‘picked up’, which wouldn’t happen if you were still a thorough going barbarian misfit, like the rest of your ‘friends’. But, yes, think of it as good practice. If you can be a nice easy going person with your present set of friends, then that should make you an invincible master of being cool, calm and easy going.
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#46

Postby Guess what? » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:28 pm

Good evening, leo.

Remember, as they all get older they will be moving in the same direction, but you just got there first.


Yeah, but this don't denay what I said, that people can exploit me for their dirty goals; 'cause i'm too compliant.
Just for not being seen as a trampoline for others. Now now, i have been a jerk, but there are people that i treated with gently behaviour, and you know? This same people don't even greet me when i meet them.
You said well: savages; people claim kindness but they are not willing to give it back.

But this is a stupid question right?
The answer is the middle way: don't fool and don't be fooled. I will just avoid who wants too much.

It doesn’t make you like them any better, does it? This is why, if you want to stay with that crowd, that you should not retaliate.


Never retaliate.
Even 'cause then they can do something worst.
I will ignore them, but sometimes ignoring do not looks like a "missing fire", but at the opposite, like if they said something so right that you have to shut up.

Also, there are situations where somebody does pick up on your conversation, but that you feel a kind of passive aggressiveness. This is usually in the form of someone’s humorless their questions that are spoken with too much of a smile, sort of like they want to play cat and mouse with you. That is also a sign that you are not welcome and that you should excuse yourself with the necessity for mingling, smile, and leave. Oh, and keep in mind that if somebody is being passive aggressive with you, then they are probably being passive aggressive with other people too, especially the ‘friends’ you see them with, so if you see the same people, minus the person who gave you the hard time, you might approach them again, and see if your reception is any different.


Uh, nice to know it.

Also, Guess What, has it ever occurred to you that you are mixing with a rather obnoxious set of misfits and lowlifes, and that you would not be doing yourself any favors by bending over backwards to ‘fit in’ with them. Remember, there are Social Circles out there that are comprised of much better people, and somehow, someday, you might happen to cross paths with such people, and you may be ‘picked up’, which wouldn’t happen if you were still a thorough going barbarian misfit, like the rest of your ‘friends’. But, yes, think of it as good practice. If you can be a nice easy going person with your present set of friends, then that should make you an invincible master of being cool, calm and easy going.


Oh, no.. my acquaintances are not that bad.. nobody is perfect. If I have not them i have not anybody right now, so. They are just... to superficial, but maybe it is just me; that have too much thoughts and see things where there are not.
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#47

Postby Leo Volont » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:33 pm

Hi Guess What,

You speak of people exploiting you and using you. Really? They are only a social group. This is not a military platoon, or a machine shop where you are the third grinder and alternate paint guy. It is just the people you hang out with. Guess What, maybe I don't understand, and you will have to give some concrete examples to explain why your being easy going will advance all these other people's campaigns for evil. I just don't see it. So they say and do what they say and do. What does that have to do with you? whatever it is they say or do, I see not reason why you should not be able to go on puffing on your cigar or have to pull your feet down from the desk that they are propped up on. Nothing is required of you, and the last time I thought about it, well, nothing is not all that difficult. But, yes, there has got to be something I am missing her. Could you please explain to me how all these people have so much power over your life, when, after all, they are really just a bunch of nobodies. the only reason you run around with them, I imagine, is because you get lonely and can't be satisfied to stay home with the cats. But, yes, I should stop and let you explain, considering it quite possible that there is something I'm missing.
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#48

Postby Guess what? » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:50 am

I don't mean the social group, but people that i don't know well can do it.
I mean, we know that people are ready to put their feet in your head, being too much compliant can maybe help them in this.
Example?
Mmh, i can think about those who wanna look like better then other and start to say stupid puns or offensive phrase in order to submitting the others.
We already touched this subject, don't we? About the bullies I mean, but still, in this case, letting what they want is a risk for my person.
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#49

Postby Leo Volont » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:39 am

Good Evening Guess What,

Okay, then we covered this all before, and I still don't see what you are so worried about. This sensitivity on your part, the feeling that people will take advantage of you, well, it is all delusional. you aren't 'touchy' for any good reason. You are touchy because you are touchy because you are touchy. Perhaps when those books arrive (the books you ordered) and you begin reading them, you will begin to realize that in order to change, well, you have to change. You seem to be locked into wanting to change while remaining completely the same. It doesn't work like that. You know, if you can't offer any example of how these people are really in any real way imposing on you, then you really don't have a problem, do you?

Yes, we would all like the World to hold us in high regard. But, really, why should they? As I keep pointing out, people are thinking primarily of themselves. If you want people to like you, well, you have to stop thinking so much about yourself and show that you like and respect them. "To make a friend, you have to be a friend". It takes work to get the respect and friendship of other people. With women, yeah, the girls KNOW that you LIKE them (what man wouldn't, right?) but what is not so ordinary for them is to feel respected. You have to be the one to initiate all of this 'respect'. People have to see you as an asset in their lives. You have to be good for something. Unless you do something that will make people like you, then they have absolutely no reason to, do they? Who are you anyway, right? You have to Create the person that people will like and respect. You have to design that person, the likable you, by deliberate intention. The only person you can expect to love you for yourself, just the way you are, is your Mother, and some young men can't even manage that. But right now you go about being touchy and defensive about everything. Why should anybody like that? think about it. If you met somebody who was just like you, and treated you the way you treat people, would you like the guy? Maybe not, right?
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#50

Postby Guess what? » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:36 pm

Hi leo
Uhm well, sorry for mysantropistic view.. It is just i wanna be sure for every situation.
Also yesterday happened this:

1. A dude talk bad about a girl (called ugly) i felt this like it is really evil
2. If two friends talk bad about each other.. Dafaq i have to do? Say yes to both?

I don't want remain completely the same.. Just i said some pages ago, this "be friendly" is not so far from what i am.. I guess.
Just sometimes my anger brings me to destroy everything, but well, we already touched this point.

Leo, please don't think that i'm trapped in this. Actually i already practicing your tips. :D
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#51

Postby Leo Volont » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:34 am

Guess what? wrote:Hi leo
Uhm well, sorry for mysantropistic view.. It is just i wanna be sure for every situation.
Also yesterday happened this:

1. A dude talk bad about a girl (called ugly) i felt this like it is really evil
2. If two friends talk bad about each other.. Dafaq i have to do? Say yes to both?

I don't want remain completely the same.. Just i said some pages ago, this "be friendly" is not so far from what i am.. I guess.
Just sometimes my anger brings me to destroy everything, but well, we already touched this point.

Leo, please don't think that i'm trapped in this. Actually i already practicing your tips. :D


Hi Guess What,

yeah, I know that you are trying. Oh, I forget, did you order those books? The books will help to keep your mind in the game.
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#52

Postby Guess what? » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:16 pm

Not yet.
I spent half of my salary in 9 days; i will wait the 10th july, or at least i will look for them on the web

Anyway I will keep you up sometimes. Mostly I have trouble when one or more friends have a fight; and i have to be by someone's side
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#53

Postby Leo Volont » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:31 pm

Guess what? wrote:Not yet.
I spent half of my salary in 9 days; i will wait the 10th july, or at least i will look for them on the web

Anyway I will keep you up sometimes. Mostly I have trouble when one or more friends have a fight; and i have to be by someone's side


Good Morning Guess What,

Oh! No! NEVER take sides! Well, not unless it is the Group Alpha Member who gets in a fight (or the person who throws all the party and buys all the dope and beer). Sometimes when people divorce, all the couples in the social group need to declare whose side they are on. But in all ordinary cases, for the typical squabbles that people get into, NEVER take sides. It is just another way that you have found to make even more enemies for yourself. Long after the two primaries in the battle kiss and make up, one of them will remember that you 'stabbed them in the back'. Just don't take sides. Do what everyone else does, who has any sense: steer clear of both of them until they 'kiss and make up'. Why should you get dragged into it? If either party presses you, tell them they are both wrong. Tell them that is this is a Social Group, not a friggin 'Fight Club'. If you are all friends then you are friends, and whatever gets in the way, just get over it. Talk to them the way I am talking to you (you must know my tone and general direction by now). Clunk their heads together and tell them they are being ridiculous.
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#54

Postby Guess what? » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:10 am

Hello leo.

I will read your post then, but now i have the perfect example about who takes advantages from being gentle.

One day a man had an accident with his car. My father wanted to help him and so stop his car near to the place of the accident.
The son of a bitch, knowing that my father had nothing to do with the situation, said to the police that was my father's fault. So he had to pay the man.

This i mean when i m scared of being too much gentle
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#55

Postby Leo Volont » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:01 am

Guess what? wrote:Hello leo.

I will read your post then, but now i have the perfect example about who takes advantages from being gentle.

One day a man had an accident with his car. My father wanted to help him and so stop his car near to the place of the accident.
The son of a bitch, knowing that my father had nothing to do with the situation, said to the police that was my father's fault. So he had to pay the man.

This i mean when i m scared of being too much gentle


Hi Guess What,

The incident you cited is most extraordinary. It makes me wonder where you are from. In many societies in the World a person would be afraid to aggress so blatantly against another person, especially in such a case where names are exchanged and one has access to the other's information. There would be the fear of retaliation. Also, since I do not know your father personally, I would also suspect that he actually did cause the accident, but was too proud to admit it to his family, and so came home with this far fetched story. Also, in the countries I have lived in, it is very common for the police to suppose that everybody is lying. So they typically listen to impartial witnesses, or they appraise the actual evidence on the scene, such as damage to the cars and skid marks. So we need to wonder why the police took the word over a bold faced liar, while totally ignoring your father. But I do not know where you are from. Maybe the other guy bribed the police while your father was rude to them. He IS your father, and I must suppose that you learned your negative and abrasive attitude from somebody.

But, anyway, you are arguing the wrong way. Again you are trying to justify being angry. You are trying to justify being obnoxious. You are trying to justify being the guy that rights into Forums complaining that people have a problem with him. Remember, you can't fix your problem by continuing to be the same guy that you wrote in complaining about. All of your problems stem from the dysfunctional way you think and the dysfunctional way you act. You really need to stop justifying everything that has caused you all the problems you complain about. Really, find some money somehow, and if you can't order some Anger Management books then find some somewhere. You're not listening to me. Maybe you would respect some "real" expert... although, look at these pages.... it is beginning to look like I wrote a complete book, doesn't it?
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#56

Postby Guess what? » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:58 pm

Here I am, Leo!

Leo Volont wrote:Oh! No! NEVER take sides! Well, not unless it is the Group Alpha Member who gets in a fight (or the person who throws all the party and buys all the dope and beer). Sometimes when people divorce, all the couples in the social group need to declare whose side they are on. But in all ordinary cases, for the typical squabbles that people get into, NEVER take sides. It is just another way that you have found to make even more enemies for yourself. Long after the two primaries in the battle kiss and make up, one of them will remember that you 'stabbed them in the back'. Just don't take sides. Do what everyone else does, who has any sense: steer clear of both of them until they 'kiss and make up'. Why should you get dragged into it? If either party presses you, tell them they are both wrong. Tell them that is this is a Social Group, not a friggin 'Fight Club'. If you are all friends then you are friends, and whatever gets in the way, just get over it. Talk to them the way I am talking to you (you must know my tone and general direction by now). Clunk their heads together and tell them they are being ridiculous.


Hm, ok, I see.
You know? All of this is just like my best friend's acting.
He treats others like they are all his good friends, but then he speaks bad about them behind the back.

I hate him when he does this... like how I was saying in the first pages, I hate this "being fake". He smiles at them and then when we are alone he says "they are jelous of me", "they are stupid", "I am better than them" etc.
With my girl, he does alway the good friend, telling her that she is beautiful, that she's great, that she is always in the right.
And when he talks with me, for something he still is by her side, but for the rest he says that she stinks, she's ugly, she is sick in the head.

And I said him once that this really makes me angry this... that she hates me while I like her, while she likes who stabs her back,

And talking about taking sides, I'm really annoyed that he isn't by my side.. I mean, he knows me since we were childs; I cannot require that he doesn't talk with whom i had a fight; just don't be so fake..., and jesus christ, he suddenly becomes their best friend in the right istant after they are my enemies.
Looks like he is acting to annoying me.

If I have to act like this, i prefer in a more pure way. Sometimes, despite strange and embarassant things happen, I reach the point to do NOT judge others -and this for me is important; people say to do not judge too, but they do as well- so i don't need to talk bad about them on their back.

What do you think about this my mental trip? :P

Leo Volont wrote:
Hi Guess What,

The incident you cited is most extraordinary. It makes me wonder where you are from. In many societies in the World a person would be afraid to aggress so blatantly against another person, especially in such a case where names are exchanged and one has access to the other's information. There would be the fear of retaliation. Also, since I do not know your father personally, I would also suspect that he actually did cause the accident, but was too proud to admit it to his family, and so came home with this far fetched story. Also, in the countries I have lived in, it is very common for the police to suppose that everybody is lying. So they typically listen to impartial witnesses, or they appraise the actual evidence on the scene, such as damage to the cars and skid marks. So we need to wonder why the police took the word over a bold faced liar, while totally ignoring your father. But I do not know where you are from. Maybe the other guy bribed the police while your father was rude to them. He IS your father, and I must suppose that you learned your negative and abrasive attitude from somebody.

But, anyway, you are arguing the wrong way. Again you are trying to justify being angry. You are trying to justify being obnoxious. You are trying to justify being the guy that rights into Forums complaining that people have a problem with him. Remember, you can't fix your problem by continuing to be the same guy that you wrote in complaining about. All of your problems stem from the dysfunctional way you think and the dysfunctional way you act. You really need to stop justifying everything that has caused you all the problems you complain about. Really, find some money somehow, and if you can't order some Anger Management books then find some somewhere. You're not listening to me. Maybe you would respect some "real" expert... although, look at these pages.... it is beginning to look like I wrote a complete book, doesn't it?


I suppose it is extraordinary, but it was just an example.
Anyway I'm italian, as you can see that my english is not so good (I misswrote incident in accident, didn't i?)

Do you think that my father lied? It can be... I mean, He never didn't that when he was in trouble, but it can be this time. But in another way, he sold much meat at a woman, he trusted her but he never saw the money; and on this my mother agrees too... but effectly, it is really strange that he never took a lawyer,, but i guess that was for other reasons that have not anything to do with the selling, i can tell what they are.
But maybe I'm taking the bad example, my father maybe wasn't too much good, but he was too much naive and reckless, but then people are so touchy. Really, my friends are like this; just an "you are ugly today" said as a joke and they explode.. oh, who said this wasn't me, let me be clear. xD
Anyway my father is been kinda absent in my life... i suppose, maybe I took him for granted; if you wanted to mean that i took this behaviour from him.. my mother sure acts like an a**hole, crazy, femminist, and so.
My father once said that I have trouble with girls 'cause I'm too good. I am with them, until they reject me, then i become an a**hole, with that girl instead, I did the animal even when she still was with me.. but we already touched this point, didn't we?

I'm not justifing being angry or rude. As you said, sometimes I will be able to doubt about all of this, and i don't want that will come due of some jackal.
You said "what did being angry bring to you?" and i can reply "too much suffering and regrets".. but i'm not made of just this, I'm kind too, i can tell this, I was kind with too many people and still i was alone.
I have been friendly with a dude, bring him to his home once 'cause he can't drive, and he don't even greets me if he sees me. Here there are many jackals, that dude can even say "Oh, guess what? that idiot once gave me a free passage", many people do this, they think about theirself, true, but they enjoy humiliating others.
But you answered me before... I cannot be liked from everybody, just somebody says that it is better being scary than being gentle... i disagree, but i can see why they say that.

Yeah, we talked a lot, and I'm very gratefull for this. I'm just putting many situation to learn how to act in the future. Yeah, i have to learn from my experiences, but be ready can't be bad, i guess.
Today I was thinks that I did mistake with that girl, when she recontacts me to have an explanation, even if there wasn't, cause she lied to me or say half-truths, i hate this.. do not make fun of me you b!tc*, after i said that i would like retrying, you cannot tell me that you wanna be single 'cause you have trouble, and the next day your friends tell me that you are with you ex- again. It is normal that then you see me with another one, and she had the heart to say that she cannot trust me anymore, that i'm a lier, etc.
Why she has to say these things? They hurted me a lot. Then she said to my friend that maybe she never had the intention to come back with me, so why you are treating me if i did too many mistakes if just the first was enough?... and to our friends she put the entire story in another way. Sometimes she disgusts me for this behavior, but in at the same time i still care.. I'm really sick ahahah.

So, when she recontacted me the first time, I opened my heart, said what i felt and what i thought, even bad things, seems like she doesn't care at all, and sometimes she reproeached me the bad things i said; then we had a fight again and i said that i care about her, and i had trouble with other girls, etc.
I think I did a BIG mistake in being so honest with her, I think she laughed like a crazy when she understood how weak I am.
But In a Friendly and Easy Going phase, I wouldn't hold a grudge, and say to her "You left me for a good reason. I'm really sorry for it." and the end, what do you think?
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#57

Postby Guess what? » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:26 pm

Oh, and another thing

Leo Volont wrote:Now, more about women. I believe that we are moving into a new age of prudery, puritanicalism, and sexual inhibitions. The Sexual Revolution is over (oh, but did I live through Glorious Times, didn’t I?). Now, after the ME TOO Movement guys are treading a virtual mine field if they should pursue any kind of flirtatious behavior. Look at all the men who got into severe trouble in their careers for doing what they had done every day ever since Woodstock in 1969. Women are becoming so humorless. Who can remember a time when women were so less disposed to be agreeable. They think that being congenial makes them appear weak (sound familiar?). It reminds me of how the spinsters of a former age were presented in literature and in the movies – dressed from neck to ankles in frumpy fabric and with knit brows and pursed lips, agitating for Women’s Suffrage or that alcohol be banned – they must have been great fun, huh? But it is like we entering into our future by going back in time.


I never talked about this, even though it catched my attention.
Are you sure?
Here it is an hell. Women does whatever they want, their crimes are in second place, they are idolatrated, and now every news is about a "femicide" like if they are huntred and they have to stay strong (but statics say that femicides are lesser now than before).

Kids have sex in their 14 for the first time. Girls are allowed to be wh*re in early age. Now the new fashion is polygamous love. This disgustes me.
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#58

Postby Leo Volont » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:57 pm

Good Morning Guess What,

Your one friend who is polite and sociable to everybody should be a shining example for your – a model to base yourself on. You call him a phony, but he is honest with you, his special friend with whom he confidesh, and then you bad mouth him for it. People are always more open with their closest friends. There is no inconsistency with being nice to people socially, and then speaking honestly about them behind their backs. Being nice to people socially is what we are ALL supposed to do, but if people act up in socially bazaar or inappropriate or ridiculous ways, then certainly people will talk about it behind their backs. You see, this is how Society regulates itself. People try not to do what is found objectionable in other people. For instance, while nobody will mention to your face that it is ridiculous to wear a Donald Trump ‘Make America Great Again’ hat, you still know that it is socially ridiculous and disgusting because all of one’s friends criticize it when others do it, and yes, behind their backs. It is by gossip and back biting that we know what are NOT the approved behaviors within our Social Circles. If everyone were always completely non-judgmental and never had an ill word for anybody, no matter how they acted, well, we would all be no better than animals, wouldn’t we. So, yes, your friend knows how to do all of this stuff properly. Act like him.

And about girls. Well, it is not like you are married, and even if you were, it would still be advisable to allow your wife some slack and not be annoyingly jealous all the time. You are obviously the kind of guy that is predisposed towards liking women, so you really should be a little more accepting of their chronic behaviors. Who cares whether they are nice to other guys when they are not with you, as long as they are nice to you when they are with you, right? I remember decades ago when I was in school, and would feel honored that a pretty and popular girl would take a minute to speak with me. And it didn’t matter to me at all that she would probably be just as nice to 20 other guys before lunch… I was pleased that I was one of the select few. Look at the Good in Things and stop trying to figure out what it is that you should be worried and upset about. Be ‘easy going’.

Oh, good, you’re Italian. What City or region? I grew up with a lot of Italians. Everybody talks about how great French Cuisine is, but it is actually Italian Food that everybody enjoys. And some of the prettiest girls were Italian… from Naples. Oh, Guess What, your English is actually pretty good, and has gotten better given all the practice you have had with it over the last few weeks.
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#59

Postby Guess what? » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:09 am

Good Morning leo, thanks for my english. :D

I live in Umbria region, Assisi town.
Oh yes, i love naples girls and women, i even lost my head for one of them that is 48 years old, but she looks really young.

Well, my friend acts like a cheerleader. Be nice and the spitting toxic behind the back is not so well sawn. Ok with me, but when talk about others with stranger?
People don't care for real? Or they start to do not trust people like this cause the next can be them.
I should do this, but hey, if i was in the right i would not be here.
I don't think i'm going to speak in the back that mych. We'll see.

Oh i don't care if girls are nice with others; but she don't even talk to me anymore. For a good reason though... I'm trying to forget her. I did it but sometimes i still remember.
I read a web article where was said that men never forget women that they liked much.
Women instead can turn the page easily.
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