Question: Self-hypnosis in deep states

Postby moonlightress » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:08 pm

Hi
I have a question about something I've been experiencing in self-hypnosis.

I listen mostly to (sorely-needed) ego-strengthening script recordings, especially one with a Hartland script from Ines Simpson's self-hypnosis website. I also listen to other YouTube tapes - I'm particularly fond of one called "Deep Trance Healing", which I've listened to at least 50 times. I started to blank out and lose time during it and return abruptly at the emerging count-up, with no memory of a chunk of the tape. This started happening with other audios as well, which I asked about in a post back in April. ( viewtopic.php?t=106942 ) I thought i was falling asleep, but I've since been told by a hypnotist, that from the description I gave, i am likely experiencing an ultradepth state.

I was given triggers for somnambulism and Esdaile, that i use for the general ego-strengthening recordings, but recently I've been experiencing the blanking out/amnesia/ultradepth episodes during these tapes as well (that don't have the multitude of deepeners). It seems that my mind does it own thing, once I get very relaxed.

My question: my goal for self-hypnosis is ego-strengthening. I'd like to know: am I hearing and absorbing the suggestions during this ultradepth state? Can i use this state to work towards this goal? If can't do any work in this state, then it's not actually that helpful for that, but could I use it for anything else, in self-hypnosis?
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#1

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:18 am

moonlightress wrote:My question: my goal for self-hypnosis is ego-strengthening. I'd like to know: am I hearing and absorbing the suggestions during this ultradepth state?


Given you are not observing any difference in your ego, the hypnosis is not working. In other words, the asking of your question is proof enough that the hypnosis has been ineffective.
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#2

Postby quietvoice » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:53 am

moonlightress wrote: (sorely-needed) ego-strengthening

Are you a peaceful and loving person?

Are you peaceful and loving to yourself?

What are you hoping to gain from an "ego-strengthening"?

How do you define ego?
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#3

Postby moonlightress » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:04 pm

Hi quietvoice

Thanks for your reply. :)

1. Yes

2. was No before, but since hypnosis, better and better every day - I'd venture I'm at a Yes now. :D

3. I have/had issues, less and less now since hypnosis, with self-esteem, self-confidence, assertiveness, doormat people-pleasing. That kind of thing. Basically being a frightened, depressed mouse. I had 2 SP Simpson Protocol hypnosis sessions recently, concerning this (other stuff too, but mainly this). What I am doing right now in self-hypnosis, is compounding what took place in those sessions.

4. I'm going by this definition and script outline from John Hartland, on Ines Simpson's website, selfhypnosis d o t esdaileinstitute d o t com/671-2 (I'm not being given permission to post the link.)

Since SP sessions are done in Esdaile, and I've listened many, many times to the Deep Trance tape, independently from that, my mind seems to have become conditioned to going to deeper states. I have no hypnosis training (yet) hence my question. If states beyond Esdaile aren't useful for what I want to do at this time, then I don't want to cultivate them. If they are, then I will.
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#4

Postby moonlightress » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:41 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Given you are not observing any difference in your ego, the hypnosis is not working. In other words, the asking of your question is proof enough that the hypnosis has been ineffective.


Richard,
Given that you do not know me, or how far I have come since I last posted, that is the most ignorant and arrogant reply I've read for a long time. Where did you get the idea that I have not observed any difference in my ego?

Personal growth, self improvement is not a destination. Once you get to a 'there' you wanted to go to, it becomes a 'here' and you formulate another 'there' and keep right on. It's a beautiful, life-long process. And hypnosis has helped me with this process, beyond my wildest dreams.

I no longer want to waste any more energy on this reply. Read what I replied to Quietvoice.

It is, however, rather fun to try out my new-found assertiveness. Hypnosis could help you with the negativity you display in your reply. But only if you want it, of course.

---
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” - Dumbledore
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#5

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:26 pm

moonlightress wrote: Where did you get the idea that I have not observed any difference in my ego?


Because you asked the question whether or not it is working. That is sufficient evidence that it is not working.

Let me put it to you this way. This is what you effectively asked...

“I’m taking pills for a rash. The rash is still there. Are the pills working?”

The answer is obviously no.

Now you can say that I don’t know you and that I have not seen the rash and possibly the rash has gotten less red, etc. etc. But then you would not need to go into a forum and ask, would you? Instead, you would observe he rash and be able to determine the effectiveness of the pills.

You have ego problems. You still have ego problems. Is the hypnosis working? Obviously not. At least it is working so poorly that like the rash you are uncertain. You are not seeing a difference observable enough that there was no need to ask the question.

So back to my original response...the fact you need to ask is proof enough that the hypnosis is not effective.
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#6

Postby moonlightress » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:38 am

Richard,

You have not understood my question. I didn't ask whether hypnosis was working. I asked if direct suggestion worked in ultradepth/Sichort state. Totally different question.

This is the level of hypnotic trance I was going to, when I posted in April. I thought I was falling asleep when the 'blanking out' happened, but I've since been told (by a hypnotist) that I am not asleep, just amnesic of the very deep trance state I've been in.

If you can help me with what work can be done in Sichort, and how best to utilize this state, which I inadvertently go to, I'd love to hear.
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#7

Postby moonlightress » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:01 am

And yesterday, I got an answer to my question (I've been asking around the Net) - the same answer from 2 hypnotists, that yes, they do work. Just because you can't consciously remember, doesn't mean your subconscious didn't get the message.

Stands to reason, really.
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#8

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:28 pm

moonlightress wrote:And yesterday, I got an answer to my question (I've been asking around the Net) - the same answer from 2 hypnotists, that yes, they do work. Just because you can't consciously remember, doesn't mean your subconscious didn't get the message.

Stands to reason, really.


How do you know?

Yesterday you stated that because I don’t know you, that my answer that given the hypnosis was not observably effective was arrogant. Yet now, you have two hypnotists that also don’t know you say it is working and you are fine with what they have to say.

It doesn’t stand to reason.

If you take a pill for a rash and the rash starts going away then it stands to reason. It is reasonable that the pill may be the cause of the rash going away. But, there is a chance it wasn’t the pill. Something else may have caused the rash to go away. We repeat this experiment thousands of times and we get a good understand that pill X is the cause that a rash goes away. That stands to reason.

Hypnosis being subliminally received doesn’t stand to reason.

The very reason hypnosis has very narrow application in the medical community Is because it doesn’t stand up to reason. Reasoned people understand that just because you have a theory that messages are subliminally received, it doesn’t make it so. It is a plausible story, but when tested against reason it fails the test.

The fact you have listened no less than 50 times, but are uncertain if you are absorbing the suggestions is clear, observable evidence that no....no...you are absolutely not absorbing the suggestions.

How many more times will you take the pill and still be curious or wonder if it is really working on your rash? To me, if I have taken a pill 50 times, I can easily decide for myself if it is working. I don’t need a doctors opinion to see if the rash is going away.

It seems to me you posted your original question wanting to hear what you want to hear, regardless of the evidence. You found two hypnotists to tell you that hypnosis works. That stands to reason in your mind.

But, when the messenger points out that it is evident that suggestions are not working if you have listened 50 times yet still are unsure, then that does not stand to reason. In fact, you find that unreasonable and are offended by the idea someone would tell you such a thing.
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#9

Postby moonlightress » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:12 pm

You still don't get that I was asking a theoretical question: whether a certain technique would work in a certain trance state. Did you read the bit about, what I am doing now is the compounding?

One of the hypnotists is the one I had sessions with, so I wouldn't say she doesn't know me. The other is one who does ultradepth hypnosis, so is familiar with the state and could answer my theoretical question.

How about this: you get to be right, and I get to be happy? You get to hammer that it hasn't worked, with all the proof and theory you can dream up (why are you on a hypnoforum, if that's what you like to do?) and I get to be happy about all the wonderful outcomes I've had and continue to receive, from hypnosis, not only in ego-strength, but other areas of life as well.

I wish you well, Richard. I wish you the happiness I've found.
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#10

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:31 pm

moonlightress wrote:How about this: you get to be right, and I get to be happy? You get to hammer that it hasn't worked, with all the proof and theory you can dream up (why are you on a hypnoforum, if that's what you like to do?) and I get to be happy about all the wonderful outcomes I've had and continue to receive, from hypnosis, not only in ego-strength, but other areas of life as well.


Who says that I am right? Just because I offer an alternate view doesn’t make me right.

But, I’m glad you dismissing alternate views makes you happy. I understand. It is very common for people to decide upfront what they wish to hear and then seek out confirmation to strengthen what they wish to believe. No big deal, we all do it.

What has demonstrated to effectively strengthen ego is CBT. Just an alternate approach for you to consider...or dismiss.
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#11

Postby moonlightress » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:43 pm

Perhaps my original post was unclear. It should have read, short and sweet, " Does direct suggestion work in ultradepth/Sichort state?"

The Deep Trance tape I spoke about having listened to so many times, is totally separate from my ego-strengthening work. This tape is a feel-good experience, I repeat over and over, because deep trance is euphoric.

But I'm getting a bit tired of this conversation.
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#12

Postby jimmyh » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:53 pm

Hi Moonlightress,

Don't worry about Richard. He has a hard time understanding what he's missing sometimes.

The answer to your question can be a little tricky, since as the other hypnotists have said, neither being consciously aware nor remembering are necessary in order for suggestions to take effect. At the same time, that's no guarantee that they are either.

The best way to handle things -- not just from an empirical perspective but from a hypnotic and therapeutic one as well -- is to pay attention to the details of your experience and see what you notice. Do you *feel* like they suggestions have sunk in and taken effect? The answer might feel like "I don't know", and that's perfect. Uncertainty is room for learning, and you don't have to become certain to have learned something useful. The answer you come to might be "hmm, I dunno, I really feel like it is though", in which case by all means keep doing it unless/until that changes. Or it may be "Hmm, maybe not", in which case it *may* still be worthwhile in the meantime, but you should probably start looking for other options if things don't clear up for the better. There's a lot of cool stuff to be found just in looking closely at your own experience, and you can get pretty useful hints pretty quickly about what is working and what is not -- or what is keeping you from being able to openly search for the answer to this question, if something is stopping you.

Not all hypnotists do things the same way, and I honestly haven't found much use for "super/ultra/wacky deep" states. That doesn't necessarily mean it can't work or can't be the best way of doing some things (surgical anesthesia, maybe?), but it certainly isn't necessary for what you're trying to do. It's also possible to peer into the trance and watch your body accepting (or not accepting) suggestions, and to notice what it is that is causing things to work or not work -- and debug from there. To the extent that it feels like it's working and you're seeing verifiable improvements, keep on doin' what you're doin'.

If you're ever concerned that it's not, you can start looking into under the hood and start getting int the details of what's goin' on.

Cheers, Jimmy
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#13

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:38 pm

jimmyh wrote:The best way to handle things -- not just from an empirical perspective but from a hypnotic and therapeutic one as well -- is to pay attention to the details of your experience and see what you notice. Do you *feel* like they suggestions have sunk in and taken effect?


Exactly my point moonlightress. Do you *feel* like...

So... “Does direct suggestion work in ultradepth/Sichort state?"

According to jimmyh, if you *feel* like it then that is proof. Forget that It has not been replicated or validated. Just use whatever you *feel* as proof.

If you use jimmyh’s burden of truth then absolutely it works. If you use the what do you *feel* criteria that is up to you.

I prefer to use peer reviewed studies that can be replicated as a burden of proof. Here is a link to all the studies I was able to find on the Sichort state hypnosis.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=e ... osis&btnG=

And here is research on cognitive behavioral therapy.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=e ... ehavioral+

Notice the difference?

The fact there is effectively no published, peer reviewed research in a credible journal on Sichort is a big red flag for me that maybe there isn’t enough evidence to say that it works. Of course that doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, it just means that when people say the proof is in how you *feel* it is a level of rigor for truth that is personally below my threshold.

There are some peer reviewed, clinical studies that show the effectiveness of hypnosis in treating stress and anxiety. I’m not against the use of hypnosis. I am just not a fan of the *feel* measure.

Again, I understand that you have the answer you already wanted. I understand my alternate answer is not what you want to hear. No problem. I’m not saying I am right. I’m just participating in a public forum, because it is enjoyable to me...it *feels* right.
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#14

Postby Candid » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:15 am

moonlightress wrote: Once you get to a 'there' you wanted to go to, it becomes a 'here' and you formulate another 'there' and keep right on.


I like this. So true.
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