Question: Self-hypnosis in deep states

#15

Postby moonlightress » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:34 pm

Thank you, Candid. :)

(warning: long)

Richard, I'd like to apologise to you, for my sarcasm and combative tone in previous replies. Just as you don't know me, I don't know you either. Something I try to remember, which I failed to do here, is to "always be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting some sort of battle". That isn't a sideways swipe saying you have problems; I wouldn’t know. But I have fought many battles and met many people, who were kind to me. My replies haven’t been becoming, to the kind of person I strive to be.

Back to the discussion, which I've decided to continue for the sake of those who visit the forum after me, who are hoping hypnosis could help them. I want them to be able to read an "it's-working-for-me-beyond-my-wildest-dreams" story. There needs to be some balance here: you being here on the forum saying it’s only marginally effective for a few things and someone else saying, it has worked with me, for far, far more than that (ego-strengthening is only one of them.)

You see, some of us have been through the psychiatric system, with a lot more than stress and anxiety, and yes, through the evidence-based-medicine approach of CBT - which failed. Had CBT worked, we would not be seeking help anymore, would we? I know I hadn't mentioned before, that I had already been through CBT (after all, the forum is labelled "Self Hypnosis", not "Which kind of therapy should I try") and it was useless for me; my powerful negative subconscious script toppled all efforts by my conscious, to override it and get anywhere.

You keep saying CBT is empirically proven and hypnosis is only effective for (I forget what you said it was) and there isn’t proof - and how do you think that makes those, for whom CBT failed, feel? Some of us come from a place of desperation and a long route through many failed therapies. Please don’t ride roughshod over our hopes and dreams, which I feel is what you are doing. Hypnosis may just be the therapy that finally helps; it was/is for me.

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
jimmyh wrote:The best way to handle things -- not just from an empirical perspective but from a hypnotic and therapeutic one as well -- is to pay attention to the details of your experience and see what you notice. Do you *feel* like they suggestions have sunk in and taken effect?

Exactly my point moonlightress. Do you *feel* like...
... I am just not a fan of the *feel* measure.


I don't see the problem with it? You go to a hypnotist, or any therapist, because you hope to *feel* better. How you *feel* is precisely the yardstick by which you will assess the effectiveness of treatment, for each individual person. Are you wanting to measure by a HAM-D score or something, so you can get some objective measure? A statistically significant number of people must pass an objective, measurable test of how they feel, before we can assess if something worked? Tell that to the person for whom it worked. I don’t care about proof, I know it worked. I can tell by how, when I pay the attention jimmyh describes, to the old thought of "you'll never amount to anything", it just doesn't fit with my reality anymore. I don’t see how “I feel better” or “I feel this is working for me”, is an invalid way to measure success?

It may not be the best way to formulate national healthcare system recommendations for first- second- and third-line treatments. Here I’d be with you, on needing the objective proof from the whole double-blind-trials process. (Actually, I used to be a clinical coordinator for such (pharmaceutical) trials. :D ) But *how it feels* is certainly good enough for me, and I imagine, every hypnotist and client working together.

I have a *f-e-e-l-i-n-g* that soon, you’ll bring up placebo effect. Am I correct? Shall we take that topic, too? (Yeah, I’m baiting, but in a friendly way.)
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#16

Postby moonlightress » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:53 pm

Hi jimmyh

Thanks very much for your reply. Hope you saw what I wrote above, about some of my old destructive thoughts just not matching my reality anymore. Certainly I do feel "I don't know" about some others, but the fact that some have shifted the way they have, leads me to *know* the process works, if I allow it.

I love that there are so many schools of thought in hypnosis. And I think the wacky deep states just totally appeal to me. :D I've had 2 Simpson Protocol (SP) sessions (working in Esdaile) and the outcomes since then, have been incredible. Surgical anaesthesia and post-op healing is exactly what those deep trance states have been found useful for. SP has found a way to make those states also workable for change work. And I suppose it just makes sense to me, that the deeper the level one works on, the better. (My OP was asking, is there a threshhold below which that isn't true anymore?)

It's also possible to peer into the trance and watch your body accepting (or not accepting) suggestions, and to notice what it is that is causing things to work or not work -- and debug from there.


I'm intrigued. :) How do you "peer into the trance"?

keep on doin' what you're doin'.

thank you.
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#17

Postby jimmyh » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:32 am

Hope you saw what I wrote above,


I did, and I'm impressed. Being the kind of person that comes back with a response like that is definitely something worth striving for. Well done.

Out of curiosity, how do you explain to yourself your previous failure case to remember "always be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting some sort of battle", and your success in being able to act with that in mind this time around?


Back to the discussion, which I've decided to continue for the sake of those who visit the forum after me, who are hoping hypnosis could help them. I want them to be able to read an "it's-working-for-me-beyond-my-wildest-dreams" story.


Thanks. I appreciate it. I think those stories are important and undershared. When I first got into hypnosis I was kinda baffled that I didn't seem to see people doing all of the amazing things that seemed like ought to be possible. While a good number of those turned out to be infeasible/undesirable for reasons I didn't understand at the time, there was also a big part of the answer that was just "yes, that happens, that's real, and those people just don't go around talking about it all the time"

I love that there are so many schools of thought in hypnosis.


Indeed. Keeps things interesting :)


SP has found a way to make those states also workable for change work. And I suppose it just makes sense to me, that the deeper the level one works on, the better.


That's certainly an intuitive way to look at it, and there's definitely something to it (or else what is the purpose of "hypnosis" at all?). There can be a bit more to it sometimes though.

"Deeper trance" tends to work well when the right answers are obvious but strongly counter-intuitive. Pain control is probably the most strongly supported use of hypnosis, and it makes sense from this perspective. Feeling okay with strong physical pain is a really hard thing for most people to imagine. It's not simply a matter of "oh, sure, I'll just try not caring!". At the same time, there are plenty of times where it's pretty easy to know that turning the pain off is safe -- like when done with the support of a doctor for surgery or something. In these cases, we want to make a cognitive change that is both *simple* and a qualitatively large jump from normal perception, and we have all the trust that this is the right thing to do. All that is left is going through the motions of shifting attention from where it is and has been to where it needs to be -- and focusing attention to the exclusion of one's normal way of seeing things is what trance *is*.

The reason it's not always that simple is that it's not always so clear what the right answer is, and in the process of it becoming clear often it no longer seems counter-intuitive anymore. For example, when my friend wanted to work on her "irrational" fear of heights, I didn't try to hypnotize her into a deep state and give her another way of looking at it. I just noted that what she was experiencing was an inner conflict, and that she hadn't actually gone through the motions of listening to the fear and deciding whether or not it was rational. She just tried to blow it off before she had really heard herself out, and so it's no wonder she wasn't able to be fully non-afraid. By the time I could get her to say "Yes. I do trust that this rope will hold, and I'm willing to risk being wrong and falling to the concrete below" the fear was no longer something that needed dealing with. From then on, her "irrational fear of heights" has just been a little warning that she'd briefly look at and either decide to heed or dismiss. It's not that the solution was "at a shallow level" -- the same "level" was reached and the actual fear dissipated. It's that it didn't take any large departure from her normal worldview because we were able to bring her worldview along with it real-time.

It just depends on whether the question is closer to "I actually know the right answer here but it's weird and so I still have to get the rest of my brain on board" vs "I don't really know what I want, even if I think I do".



And I think the wacky deep states just totally appeal to me. :D. I've had 2 Simpson Protocol (SP) sessions (working in Esdaile) and the outcomes since then, have been incredible.



I'd love to hear more about it, if you're interested in sharing.

(My OP was asking, is there a threshhold below which that isn't true anymore?)


Keeping in mind that extreme depths isn't generally the area I focus on, here's how I model that one:

"Trance" is about the focus of attention, and for a trance to be "deeper" basically means that the sensitivity to things that normally grab attention has been turned down by a larger factor. So to answer your question, if you turn down the attention-grabbing sensitivity uniformly across all things, then you won't be paying attention to what the hypnotist is saying (note: attention and awareness are not the same thing), and therefore it cannot work. I *have* heard of hypnotists making this mistake, and basically inadvertently suggesting that the hypnotee not pay attention to even them.

If, however, you turn down the salience of all things *other* than your message as a hypnotist, then by definition if you succeed it will work -- because they're paying attention to you and nothing else that can block and/or contradict it. It's also worth noting that there is another failure mode here where you inadvertently end up suggesting that they don't even pay attention to the input from parts of their brain required to properly parse your message. This is where you get over-literal interpretations and stuff.

In short, I'd have to see what this particular hypnotist is actually doing, and whether they're screwing it up. As I was saying last time, the easy way to do it is just try it and see.

I'm intrigued. :) How do you "peer into the trance"?


It's not altogether different than how you reflect on things normally. If I were to say "can you please pass the milk?", I could then ask "what was that like?" and you could easily reflect on your own experience being asked this, and note how you feel about it and what factors motivate your compliance or non-compliance. That's pretty straight forward, and often that kind of thing can work in a hypnotic trance too.

For example, when I was first learning hypnosis I was playing around with my girlfriend (who wasn't actually interested in being a hypnotists) try to hypnotize me for fun. I decided to play along and really try to make it work, and so when she was giving suggestions, I was trying to focus on the extent to which it was working, and what it'd be like for it to work better. The rest of me was like "well, this obviously isn't working", and I kinda just let that be *there*, without validating/denying/otherwise interacting with it. At the point where she was starting to get cocky because I had "forgotten my name" (which felt kinda like "pretending" at the time), I decided I'd remember my name and burst her little bubble. The thing is -- and this is kinda how hypnosis works -- I had gotten sufficiently into "pretending" that it actually took a few moments to pull myself back and remember my name, even though I always knew I could and that it was under my control. Looking at what my mind was doing in this case wasn't really too different than in things like "pass the milk", except that things like this can illuminate some weird things about how our brains actually work on the lower levels sometimes.

But it'd be significantly weirder if I were to ask you "what was it like being asleep last night?". It can feel like if you don't remember, you didn't really experience it in the first place. That's totally untrue though. "What does it feel like to be asleep" is actually a perfectly well formed question that has an answer. When I first heard an experienced meditator talk about being aware while sleeping, I couldn't imagine what that would even be like. Later though, when I was playing with polyphasic sleeping and learning to nap well, I got it. I liken the experience of falling asleep to having a hundred tabs open on wikipedia and managing to close them faster than you open them, until you don't have any tabs left. It's really weird, because when you're actually asleep you're often (though actually not always!) not thinking enough to even realize "I'm asleep" and you can't really reflect in real time, but when the 20 minute timer goes off you can look back and see exactly what happened -- letting go of one train of thought after another until there was nothing left and then just *sitting* like that, unmoving, for an "unmeasurable" amount of time until the alarm goes off.

What it'd be like peering into this particular type of trance depends a bit on what it's actually like and what you're actually doing, but I'm basically suggesting you add another layer of awareness to the top of it, and watch what your mind is doing at each step of the way. Or if it gets to the point where that would get in the way and you can't keep it up, going into it with the knowledge that this is interesting enough to remember, and that you can expect to look back and see "what was that like?" as soon as you're not too busy with what you're doing, and analyze it then.
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#18

Postby moonlightress » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:52 pm

jimmyh wrote:
Hope you saw what I wrote above,

I did, and I'm impressed. Being the kind of person that comes back with a response like that is definitely something worth striving for. Well done.

Thank you, but... that wasn't actually the part I was referring to, when I said I hope you saw it :D I was referring to this:
jimmyh wrote:The best way to handle things ... is to pay attention to the details of your experience and see what you notice. Do you *feel* like they suggestions have sunk in and taken effect? The answer might feel like "I don't know", and that's perfect. Uncertainty is room for learning, and you don't have to become certain to have learned something useful.

And the parts I hoped you'd seen were:
moonlightress wrote: .... I don’t care about proof, I know it worked. I can tell by how, when I pay the attention jimmyh describes, to the old thought of "you'll never amount to anything", it just doesn't fit with my reality anymore. .....
.... Hope you saw what I wrote above, about some of my old destructive thoughts just not matching my reality anymore. Certainly I do feel "I don't know" about some others, but the fact that some have shifted the way they have, leads me to *know* the process works, if I allow it.

But since you asked:
jimmyh wrote:Out of curiosity, how do you explain to yourself your previous failure case to remember "always be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting some sort of battle", and your success in being able to act with that in mind this time around?

Now we're venturing into spiritual territory. :) Without too much detail: to my great surprise (and subsequent profound gratefulness) my Superconscious mind brought up my much-loved, but long-lost, spirituality, as an issue to be worked with in my first SP session. I hadn't sought out hypnosis with that on my mind, far from it. Nor did the hypnotist know, or lead into it. But it turns out that was what I needed. So now I have a great deal of focus on listening to my intuition about what I am here on earth to contribute. Spiritual growth, in addition to the personal growth. I woke up that morning, and it hit me between the eyes, that I'm definitely not contributing anything constructive, nor growing spiritually, if I'm behaving like I did, earlier in this thread. So, sorry again, Richard.

And now I want to apologise again (!) because I started to get back in this discussion, but now have to take a break from it, for a few weeks. I have exams looming and am seriously nervous and underprepared. I've been so excited and enthusiastic about hypnosis, that I've completely neglected studying, in favour of reading about it, and spending much time in trance, for self-hypnosis. (I don't know why people take drugs, when they could just go into trance and feel wonderful? :lol: ) The neglect has caught up with me, and this anxiety isn't something hypnosis can or even should, handle :lol: - I need to hit the books in a big way. :D I would far, far rather spend hours and hours talking about hypnosis and the wonders of the mind. What you just wrote here (thank you so much!) and what's on your sites, is madly interesting; but sanity has to prevail. I need this qualification first, *then* I can take hypnosis courses. Dammit, another fine time, ruined by responsibilty...! :roll:

I've even considered giving up what I am doing now, to study hypnosis, but fortunately my conscious mind stepped in with some rationality and I need to listen to it now. I've started loving on, and thanking it, instead of being annoyed with it, for not getting out of the way when I want to do trance work. Its only trying to protect me. I'm hoping that if I don't reject and push it away, it will be more prepared to take a nap while I explore the other parts of my mind? I may be deluded, but it feels right.

I'd love to hear more about it, if you're interested in sharing....
.... In short, I'd have to see what this particular hypnotist is actually doing, and whether they're screwing it up.


I am incredibly keen to share. So keen. But it has to wait for now. I imagine the forum software won't let me post links, so google Ines Simpson and Simpson Protocol. There are video demos there, from her courses, which she travels around the world teaching, so you can see how she works. I was very fortunate that my 2 SP sessions were with Ines herself. She'll likely be teaching at hypnosis conferences, if you're in the US. (I seem to think there's one coming up soon?) I have no hypnosis background, but I can safely say, she isn't screwing it up. At least, the NGH doesn't think so. :D :D :D

I'll be back! 8) 8)
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#19

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:38 am

moonlightress wrote: Some of us come from a place of desperation and a long route through many failed therapies. Please don’t ride roughshod over our hopes and dreams, which I feel is what you are doing. Hypnosis may just be the therapy that finally helps; it was/is for me.

I have a *f-e-e-l-i-n-g* that soon, you’ll bring up placebo effect. Am I correct? Shall we take that topic, too? (Yeah, I’m baiting, but in a friendly way.)



It isn’t about crushing hopes and dreams. It is about offering an honest opinion.

I don’t think a person should just be told whatever they wish to hear. Is that what you want? You only want opinions that say hypnosis is wonderful? There is plenty of that available. What is wrong with a person providing an opinion with evidence to consider that maybe hypnosis is not the route?

You are lost, frustrated, and desperate, having gone down many different roads that were all dead ends. You find another road that sounds good. You want everyone to just tell you what you want to hear, or do you want honest opinions before you waste more time and resources chasing yet another dead end?

There are so many people out there willing to tell you how marvelous hypnosis is, so what is so awful about hearing an alternate view? Because you don’t like it? Because it crushes hopes and dreams?

I’m not claiming any “truth” based on evidence based peer review having superior results to anecdotal evidence. But, should it not be offered up? Should it not be part of the discussion?

I saw people sacrificing chickens and drinking cokes in a religious ceremony to cure illness. Faith based healing *feels* right and certainly it has great value in a community. It certainly has helped many individuals *feel* good. Does this mean I should just not tell them of alternative cures?

Plenty of people visit psychics or astrologists. Does it make them *feel* good? Maybe. Does it work? Using a peer reviewed system that requires hypothesis testing, replication and validation, the answer is a resounding no. But, that doesn’t mean it has no value or that some may find it useful. Still, should I not offer the opinion that feeling good might not equal actual success? Why not? Because it is inconvenient or it will crush their hopes and dreams?

I think you will agree, that many people get scammed. There are people that will sell hopes and dreams for a lot of money. This includes those that are licensed medical professionals, not just those practicing alternative treatments. In other words, I don’t pretend that the licensed system is superior. I only believe that when a person asks a question, “does X work?”, that it should be okay to point out that there is no evidence that it works....other than the established “does it *feel* good?” criteria.

My response is not to crush hopes and dreams, but to provide an opinion for people to consider.
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#20

Postby moonlightress » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:25 pm

Richard
I'm not ignoring you, and I will reply, when I have my study situation under a bit more control. :)
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#21

Postby moonlightress » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:23 pm

Ha. I can’t stay away. It’s the weekend, and I need some leisure time too! I may be quieter during weekdays, but I’ll be here. I enjoy writing and am completely enchanted by the topic of hypnosis.

jimmyh wrote: I think those stories are important and undershared. When I first got into hypnosis I was kinda baffled that I didn't seem to see people doing all of the amazing things that seemed like ought to be possible. While a good number of those turned out to be infeasible/undesirable for reasons I didn't understand at the time, there was also a big part of the answer that was just "yes, that happens, that's real, and those people just don't go around talking about it all the time".

Always a negative bias on the internet. People who have had a bad experience get on the Net to talk about it to others. Those who've had good outcomes are out in the world, living their happier lives, so you don't hear about them. But you get the odd person with a great experience, who gets all nerdy about the topic and climbs online... :lol:

On deep states:
It just depends on whether the question is closer to "I actually know the right answer here but it's weird and so I still have to get the rest of my brain on board" vs "I don't really know what I want, even if I think I do".

Makes sense. From what I read, different things are best worked on in different states. And it also depends on the approach.
I'd love to hear more about it, if you're interested in sharing.

I'm assuming you took a look at the sites I mentioned? The video demos really explain best. I'd really love to know what you think.

My first session was in-person, the second online, after she'd gone home to Canada. (I'm in Denmark). She kindly taped the second, which has enabled me to go over it again and again, "peering into the trance" as you described. I was too deep to be even remotely concerned about observing the process, which is why it was so fascinating to go through it afterwards. Some places I remember what was happening in my mind, other times, not at all. I seem to get amnesic quite a bit, but it is deep trance, after all. Much happened beyond my conscious understanding of it, as she is talking with a part of the mind that I haven't found mentioned much in what I've read. Very rarely, in fact. Not the conscious, or subconscious or unconscious, but the superconscious.

What is especially good about her method is that she doesn't need to know what the issue is, if the person prefers not to say it. In my case, it wasn't a case of not wanting to say it, but rather of it being such a tangle of issues, that I couldn't even separate them out, to articulate them. (I wasn't in such great shape.) The superconscious brings up what needs to be worked on. That's why I was so desperately keen for the genre of hypnosis to be SP.
"Trance" is about the focus of attention, and for a trance to be "deeper" basically means that the sensitivity to things that normally grab attention has been turned down by a larger factor. So to answer your question, if you turn down the attention-grabbing sensitivity uniformly across all things, then you won't be paying attention to what the hypnotist is saying

Makes sense. The answers I got elsewhere to my topic question (asked it in many places) is that the subconscious is always listening, no matter the depth. I certainly felt a very intense focus of attention - it was as if nothing else existed, but the voice speaking to me. A more intense focus that in lighter trance. I read, that the issue with working in deep states is that the deep trance feels so euphoric (it does!) that even though your attention is focused and you're listening, you aren't very motivated to respond outwardly. If there isn't interaction, how can the hypnotist know what is happening? And SP has worked out how to communicate.
What it'd be like peering into this particular type of trance depends a bit on what it's actually like and what you're actually doing, but I'm basically suggesting you add another layer of awareness to the top of it, and watch what your mind is doing at each step of the way. Or if it gets to the point where that would get in the way and you can't keep it up, going into it with the knowledge that this is interesting enough to remember, and that you can expect to look back and see "what was that like?" as soon as you're not too busy with what you're doing, and analyze it then.

And that's what being able to go through the recording afterwards enabled me to do. It was very interesting. My conscious was there, watching, chattering a bit sometimes, those parts I remember. But there were times when I was able to let go more and it receded to the point of "checking out". Those are the amnesic parts. She was asking yes/no questions and as I say, most happened beyond my understanding or memory of it, but I can see on the tape I was listening and responding all the time.

A truly incredible experience. And afterwards, once I listened to and followed my intuitions, synchronicities just popped up everywhere. There were spiritual aspects to my personal experience, but that would be different for each person.
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#22

Postby moonlightress » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:23 pm

Richard,

Of course, people are entitled to hear another point of view. I’ve little doubt that CBT has been proven more effective than hypnosis. But you’re arguing from a strictly scientific burden-of-proof paradigm. Of course, this paradigm doesn’t say other things can’t be valid or effective, but it tends to attribute that to the somewhat looked-down-upon placebo effect. CBT is a treatment that lends itself to provability by the scientific hypothesis-testing method, because it’s standardized and replicable. Hypnosis isn’t standardized. Look around and see how many techniques, approaches, models there are, plus every hypnotist tailors their therapy to the individual client. You can’t do reliable quantitative research on hypnosis, because if methods are standardized, they won’t fit the individual client, and the hypnosis won’t be effective. Applying the peer-reviewed hypothesis-testing, scientific method to hypnosis is like judging a fish by its ability to climb a tree.

------

It’s with good intentions, I trust, that you want to help people not to go down another dead end, or be cheated. And you say your intention is not to crush their hopes and dreams. I’m truly glad to hear it.

In this regard, I can only speak for myself and my own experience of our encounters here. My experiences are coloured by my own filters of all my past experiences, so they are not truth, only my own truth. I can only comment on my own reactions.

The first time I encountered you, you replied very quickly. Your profile looks impressive, MVP, over 9000 posts and lots of Likes. So I thought, “fantastic, here’s a hypnotist with lots of experience and knowledge who can probably answer my question and I can learn from”. That's natural to hope for, when you come into a hypnosis forum to ask a question, I think(?) You swiftly told me hypnosis wasn’t effective and I wasn’t benefiting from self hypnosis. It wasn’t what I asked, so it was strange to me, that in this context you felt it necessary to give that opinion, and continue to expand on it. Whether or not you intended it, I experienced it as condescending. I got the feeling you were trying to invalidate my experience. Fortunately, some hypnotists weighed in on my topic.

Second time around, I asked a different question, and you responded:
Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Given you are not observing any difference in your ego, the hypnosis is not working. In other words, the asking of your question is proof enough that the hypnosis has been ineffective.

Gosh. I think I could be forgiven for getting the idea that you were downright KEEN to discredit hypnosis. Since you’d already offered your opinion before and I thus knew of the option, I found, as I replied, your response to be ignorant and arrogant. Remember, I am merely telling you about my own experience of you.

Despite my rewording and restating my question, attempting to correct your (mis)assumption and re-relating my wonderful outcomes, I felt you continued to attempt to invalidate my experience. Since I am solid in my knowledge of how much I’ve benefited from only three f2f sessions and 6 months of daily self-hypnosis, and I’d encountered your response before, I wasn’t fazed and fortunately, again, some hypnotists weighed in.

You say I only came to hear what I wanted to hear – what I came for, was a Yes, or a No. Either would have been fine; I was asking for information. You seemed somehow stuck on the topic of “does hypnosis work”, not on my actual question, which I’m still not sure you understand. Again it felt to me like you were trying to invalidate and discredit my very happy outcomes. Again it seemed to me like you were almost keen to discredit hypnosis itself. Yes, you were just giving me your opinion, telling me of another option, but I think I had made it clear by now, that I’d heard you, and disagreed. I got the impression, as I wrote, that in continuing to defend your opinion and even researching Sichort state studies for me, you really wanted to be right about hypnosis being ineffective. I even felt like you were practically waiting at the door for an opportunity to offer your opinion/dismiss my own, when I walked in. I may be wrong, it’s just my own experience and interpretation, seen through my own filters.

I find it strange, and don’t understand why you are doing this on a hypnosis forum, and not in the general psychology section right here on this site? Why is that? It seems to me that your knowledge and all the research you’ve done, plus your time, would be better spent over there, telling people how effective CBT has been proven to be. Even, perhaps, cautioning people about hypnosis. It seems strange to me that you are doing it here, where people come to discuss the topic of hypnosis, not to ask if it works.

But, to speak to the intention behind your words: thanks for your intention to be helpful.

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote: I’m just participating in a public forum, because it is enjoyable to me...it *feels* right.

Might you, perhaps, reflect on how your enjoyment of what feels right to you, is experienced by another, who comes to a hypnosis forum keen to learn more? Might you want to reflect on how your message lands? Could you assess whether or not every person wants to hear your opinion that hypnosis is ineffective, when they ask something about hypnosis?

-----

I’m curious: What hypnosis training have you had and from which school of thought? What experience have you, of being formally hypnotized? I assume the hypnosis you have had, wasn’t effective for you?
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#23

Postby moonlightress » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:27 pm

... Frustratingly, I'm still 10 posts from being up to the required 30, to be able to append a signature. I know, I know, spammers..... Yes, this post is just to increase my count. Meanwhile, I'll append it thus:

--
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” - Dumbledore
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#24

Postby jimmyh » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:52 pm

Thank you, but... that wasn't actually the part I was referring to, when I said I hope you saw it :D I was referring to this:


Haha, yes, I know. And yes, I saw the rest of your post too.

It really stood out to me though, and it showed me how I could be doing a better job of it myself. I might come back to this, but I'm going to leave it at this for now.


[...]Without too much detail: to my great surprise (and subsequent profound gratefulness) my Superconscious mind brought up my much-loved, but long-lost, spirituality, as an issue to be worked with in my first SP session.[...]


Do you mean that you had this session where spirituality came up in between your earlier responses to Richard and the one where you apologized?

The specific bit I'm asking about is why you failed then but succeeded now. What specific bit changed, and what can be done to make sure it goes the way you want it to more reliably in the future?


I'm assuming you took a look at the sites I mentioned? The video demos really explain best. I'd really love to know what you think.


Not yet. I'll get to it, but there are some other things higher on that queue at the moment.

While interesting, I don't expect to learn much from her protocol alone. I've thought about this stuff enough that I don't expect her to be doing anything new to me, and I expect to be able to immediately categorize what she's doing within my own frameworks ("yeah, she's doing X which works well in cases where Y applies, but fails in cases of Z"), so I'm not interested so much in the "what" of her approach.

What is interesting to me is the "why" of it. What actual training data has she seen that convinces her that Y is plentiful in this world, and Z not a big concern. Separately, it's interesting to see the details and strategies employed to deal with the messy details that don't fit neatly into the framework. Both of these make actual successful examples very interesting to study, and so I was interested in your experience with it more than the underlying framework itself.

I see that you've now described a bit about the experience, and I'll probably come back with more questions about it.

One thing that stands out as neat though is looking back through the recording at the parts you hadn't remembered. You describe it like you're looking at it and feeling like "yeah, I don't remember that at all", but if you put yourself back in that mindset and watch it with that in mind, are you able to recreate the experience somewhat and feel what that must have been like while watching yourself do it?


I have no hypnosis background, but I can safely say, she isn't screwing it up. At least, the NGH doesn't think so. :D :D :D


Heh, didn't mean to imply she was or might be. Just that the question depends on the specifics of implementation.
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#25

Postby moonlightress » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:20 pm

jimmyh wrote:Do you mean that you had this session where spirituality came up in between your earlier responses to Richard and the one where you apologized?
The specific bit I'm asking about is why you failed then but succeeded now. What specific bit changed, and what can be done to make sure it goes the way you want it to more reliably in the future?

Ah, ok, I misunderstood. No, the session was back in June. You meant what specific bit changed between starting the topic and writing the response you're referring to? Dunno really, I just woke up that morning and it came to me.

But now that you've asked and I've thought more about it, I'm smiling, because it relates to the spirituality I mentioned, and most likely arose from self-hypnosis. I smile because it illustrates so well, how a direct suggestion is working, without me specifically thinking about it.

One of the audios I listen to is about spiritual growth. And here is the suggestion that probably was responsible, "Every day, in every way, my wisdom and spiritual intuition grows, and flows easily and naturally, through my every touch, every word and every interaction with anyone and everyone I meet." I virtually *drink* in that suggestion and some other beautiful ones in the same vein, every time I listen - I'm think I'm particularly receptive, because it's so much how I *long* to be.

How's that for amazing?! If you hadn't asked, I wouldn't have pieced that together... This is what I mean about all the synchronicities popping up.

So just continuing to listen to that tape, will hopefully help to have that attitude embedded more. Hopefully BEFORE I open my big mouth, which has got me in many sticky situations before... :lol:
---

I sometimes blank out during that audio too, and when I come back, I've missed hearing those suggestions - so they could also be penetrating when I'm deeper, who knows?
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#26

Postby moonlightress » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:45 pm

To save you some time, I'll give you a one-paragraph outline of the 'what' of SP, hoping I do it justice. She puts the client in Esdaile, or as close as they can get to it, leaving one arm in somnambulism, because your body gets really inert in Esdaile and you don’t want to move anything at all. She sets up ideomotor responses with the hand that's in somnambulism, with different fingers for Yes and No. Then she asks questions of the Superconscious mind to work through the issue, or issues, as several can be done in one session. Some regression work involved as well, if it's relevant. From her website: “The Superconscious? In SP it seems to be, in practice it appears to be, our available connection to something quite wonderful and omniscient that always will work towards our highest Good. Perhaps what is called the Super Mind or Collective Unconscious?”

To judge by what you’ve written in this thread and on the blog in your signature, I think you’d find it interesting, because as far as I can tell, SP is something of a departure from currently taught frameworks. She was given a Pioneer award of some kind from the NGH for developing it. There’s a free ebook you can download about it, which is probably faster to skim, than sitting through videos, if you’re like me, and prefer reading over listening. Though it’s illuminating to watch a demo, the book probably gives you more ‘why’ than ‘what’. I'd look for it and link, but the bot will rap me on the knuckles. I'll find it if you want.

Anyway, you’ll get to it - or not, doesn't matter. Don't mind me; I'm just enthusing. (If you do, I’d love to know what you think.)

I see that you've now described a bit about the experience, and I'll probably come back with more questions about it.

You’re very welcome to do that.

One thing that stands out as neat though is looking back through the recording at the parts you hadn't remembered. You describe it like you're looking at it and feeling like "yeah, I don't remember that at all", but if you put yourself back in that mindset and watch it with that in mind, are you able to recreate the experience somewhat and feel what that must have been like while watching yourself do it?


That’s what I’ve been doing, putting myself back in that mindset, watching it over and over from my subjective experience of it. I can remember what was happening in my head some of the time, but the bits I don’t remember are a mystery, even watching now. I see myself responding with Yes and No, but I couldn’t tell you what it was about; it was happening on some level I didn't know about. My conscious went walkabout a couple times - I remember my mind feeling very blank and empty (and tranquil!) a few times and not always being consciously involved in what was happening (probably why I don't remember). I remember a vague feeling of boredom one time and probably checked out. :lol: Flashes of disinterest, frustration, impatience. My conscious felt flustered a few times. Uncomfortable, in the regressions. Peaceful. Happy.

Having a recording is fantastic. If I have another session in the future, I'll ask her to record again. (She said it would be like watching paint dry as I was just slumped there - it was anything but, since I remembered so little.) I was able to let go more in the second session, a third would be even more interesting. But I have enough in the self-hypnosis, for now.

(Something interesting from the first (in-person) session, was my Superconscious bringing up an issue I had no conscious knowledge of. The only thing I remember of that, was her asking “do you want her conscious mind to know about this?” and the answer being No. So I still have no idea!)

I have another question now, but I’ll put it in a new topic, since it doesn’t relate to this discussion.
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#27

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:17 pm

moonlightress wrote:– what I came for, was a Yes, or a No. Either would have been fine;



I don’t see it that way. You certainly have dismissed my “no”. My response of no, backed up with evidence was not fine.

I participate in this forum, because I find how people form, defend, deny, and otherwise use their beliefs of great interest. I find it interesting how beliefs evolve, from believing the world is flat to then being absolutely certain beyond any doubt it is a sphere.

You came to a hypnosis forum to confirm your preexisting beliefs about hypnosis. I think you are not self aware of this. I think you honestly believe you were willing to accept a “no” response.
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#28

Postby moonlightress » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:20 pm

Taking a d-e-e-e-p breath now. Sending a wave of relaxation from the top of my head, to the tips of my toes.
Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:I don’t see it that way. You certainly have dismissed my “no”. My response of no, backed up with evidence was not fine.

Most definitely, I dismissed your ‘no’. It was a ‘no’ to a question it seems you want to answer over and over, viz. ‘does hypnosis work’ – it wasn’t what I asked, neither the last time, nor this time. (I’m starting to feel like a stuck vinyl.) If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, and it seems to me, the only tool you have is ‘hypnosis doesn’t work, here’s why’. My question and possible answers *presuppose* a belief in hypnosis. Too late to convince me otherwise.
I participate in this forum, because I find how people form, defend, deny, and otherwise use their beliefs of great interest. I find it interesting how beliefs evolve, from believing the world is flat to then being absolutely certain beyond any doubt it is a sphere.

OK, well that clears that up. You’re not here because you have an interest in hypnosis. That is useful to know.
You came to a hypnosis forum to confirm your preexisting beliefs about hypnosis. I think you are not self aware of this. I think you honestly believe you were willing to accept a “no” response.

*Of course* I had a pre-existing belief in hypnosis. I didn’t need it confirmed. I was a lost cause before you even began.

Direct suggestions work fine for me in somnambulism; but do they work in ultradepth (if that is where I go, I don’t know) or if I am amnesic? Had the answer been ‘no’ I’d have moved to a hard, uncomfortable, straight-back chair, for direct suggestion self-hypnosis, to try to keep from going too deep. I was interested in either answer, but - and please note this - from a person, who “believed in hypnosis”(gasp) and either knew about deep trance and/or amnesia in trance, or was interested in talking about change work in trance. Not from someone who was still stuck on the topic of ‘does hypnosis work’. Lost cause, as I said; I’m not a nail, and I’m afraid your hammer won’t work.

I think you forgot to answer the questions at the end of my previous reply? Here they are again:
What hypnosis training have you had and from which school of thought? What experience have you, of being formally hypnotized? I assume the hypnosis you have had, wasn’t effective for you?

I’m starting to suspect you don’t know anything about hypnosis or trance at all…
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#29

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:36 pm

moonlightress wrote:Taking a d-e-e-e-p breath now.


I don’t understand why it requires you to take a deep breath.

The same as you believe I am repeating myself, you repeat yourself, but I don’t find you repeating yourself requires I take a deep breath.

Where did I say that I don’t believe in hypnosis?

I have repeatedly stated that I do believe in hypnosis. Hypnosis has shown to be a “yes” when it comes to reducing stress or anxiety. Maybe hypnosis might help you in this way.

Other applications of hypnosis have currently shown to be a “no” including the trademarked ‘ultra deep/Sichort’ state. I say currently, because currently there is no evidence past the how does it make you *feel* threshold for truth.

I don’t understand why my pointing out the lack of evidence creates such a problem? I understand you don’t personally believe in the scientific method and I have already admitted that the method has certain limitations. This doesn’t mean there is no value in the method. It doesn’t mean that evidence should be dismissed, because it doesn’t fit what you want.

Maybe we are taliking past each other, because you believe my responses are directed only to you and for you? That happens sometimes, when there is a misunderstanding that as a public forum I often times participate for the broader discussion. Other people, often times silent readers, might also be interested in hypnosis. I think having your opinion, my opinion, and jimmyh’s opinion provides better overall information.

I don’t think a forum that ignores evidence that is inconvenient is helpful. I think people truly interested in the yes/no of the effectiveness of the trademarked Sichort method should have access to multiple opinions, including opinions that use peer reviewed methods. I don’t see anything wrong with that, the same as I don’t see anything wrong with jimmyh’s “how does it make you *feel*” method. We don’t have to agree or like each other’s opinions.

As for my credentials, that is the second weakest approach people use when they wish to discredit an opinion they don’t like. The weakest is ad hominem attacks, where you simply disregard the argument and attack the person’s character. You ignore the substance and attack their intelligence, race, gender, etc. The next weakest is attacking credentials, saying because a person isn’t a credentialed physicist then whatever they say about physics has no merit. Incredibly weak, but a common approach people use to ignore evidence they don’t like.

If you truly want to know my qualifications to discuss hypnosis or any other topic related to psychology, you can find my qualifications on the Internet without much difficulty. I’m sure regardless of what you might discover, you will wish to attack those credentials.

Your credentials on hypnosis don’t matter to me, because they are irrelevant in answering the question of whether or not the trademarked Sichort method of hypnosis works. You could be the world’s foremost hypnosis expert and your opinion would only matter as much or as little as that opinion could demonstrate the effectiveness of the trademarked Sichort method, which to date, has limited if any support past testimonials or the jimmyh *feel* test.
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