Question: Self-hypnosis in deep states

#180

Postby moonlightress » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:58 pm

Back to core business? :P

And this even matches the original thread title!

I had a very interesting (exciting, actually!) experience last night, while doing my usual self hypnosis. I have several audios I rotate, last night’s was this one: Rick Smith GSF script 4 - UltraHeight (I was given a trigger for this state from Ines, too; since it's where she does most of the work.) I was quite tired, so I thought I’d do it lying on my bed, and it’d be ok if I fell asleep, since I need to catch up on sleep anyway.

The exciting bit happened right at the end. He did the emerging count-up and I opened my eyes. Moved my neck a bit to stretch out, as I’d not moved once during the session. Usually I get some backache lying flat on my back without moving for 30 mins, but there was no discomfort at all. Then I realized I couldn’t move my body or legs or left arm. Like, *not at all*. And then realized I’d not fully emerged either, even though my eyes were open and I could move my head and neck. Closed them again and drifted back in for a while, because it’s truly blissful and I wasn't concerned about anything.

Opened them a bit later and thought, ok, time to get back now. My right arm was used for the hand signals in the two sessions with Ines, so it seems to know not to go deeper than that I can still move it. So now I was emerged and could move my right arm, head and neck, but *nothing else*. I could feel the weight of my back on the bed, but I’d turned off the light (in case I drifted into sleep) and couldn’t quite locate my legs and left arm. Consciously I knew they were where I’d left them (! :D ) but they were disembodied.

I just lay there and thought “woah, this is exciting, don’t break it, don’t break it, just keep it like this!” It was the weirdest feeling, being awake and not being able to move most of my body. I just lay there a few minutes in the experience, thinking how cool it was. (It’s happened before that my legs take a while to come back, after emerging from having been deep. I’ll sit and consciously try to send some nerve impulses down to wiggle my toes (while fascinated by the fact they don't move) and it takes a minute or two to get a response.)

But it was much more pervasive this time. Then I got curious about whether I had any sensation in the parts I couldn’t move, since I couldn’t feel them. Since I could move my right arm, I thought I’d try and give a new meaning to the phrase “pinch myself to see if I’m awake”. :lol: (It wasn’t as coherent a thought as that, as I also realized that I was still in a waking trance.) So I reached across with my right arm and pinched my left really hard about 4 times. It was mildly sore, but not bothersome. There were nail marks afterwards; I did it as hard as I could. (I did it again later when fully emerged and it hurt much more.) Blew my mind a bit! - which then caused me to drift back in. Then I emerged again. This time I made some conscious effort to get nerve impulses out, got my left arm back after 2 minutes or so, then my legs back a couple of minutes later.

Sat up and thought, “wow, that was weird!” No amnesia, I remember it all. Then I grinned. :D
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#181

Postby Armstrong » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:25 pm

You said you rotate between different sound tracks. Do you get used to the different soundtracks? What is the difference between this, and guided meditation or relaxation? Its called something with guided for sure. What is the difference between meditation and hypnosis?

I haven't tried hypnosis, i've tried meditation and once i meditated for 20 min on the floor, on my lined carpet, i entered into a tranquil state ("entered") and quit after 20 min because my legs started hurting, but when i quit and i think i opened my eyes, my sight had gotted very ... sharp, where the lines of the carpet was marked in the transitiones between the lines.

After 5 min i was out of this sharp state.
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#182

Postby Armstrong » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:19 pm

A quick digression moonlightress, jeg er fra Norge, opprinnelig fra Iraq. Du?
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#183

Postby moonlightress » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:36 pm

jimmyh wrote:The only time I’d really say that as a statement “you can handle it” is as an answer to their request for *permission* to handle it. Yes, you can allow yourself to handle it. It doesn’t make you arrogant or a bad person or anything.

WHY do we think it makes us arrogant or a bad person? Why do we feel we need *permission*? (It's a blatant excuse, but in my case, I blame the scourge of the Law of Jante, to some extent, at least.) Why do we pile sh** on top of sh** and limit ourselves so much, while telling ourselves we want to get out of it, while being too scared to do it and sabotaging ourselves so we don’t get there? It’s so, so stupid and I’m a poster child for this!! We stay in our stupid stuck states, tell ourselves lies, even worse we *believe* the lies, ffs. And tell ourselves there’s nothing we can do about it and we’re fine as we are anyway. Run from the fact that, deep down, we *know* we aren’t fine, we know we’re lost but can’t find the exits. Or maybe we know where the exits are, but are too scared to go there because what’s on the other side of the door may be even more frightening. While the days and months and years tick by and then when time’s up, we can’t go gentle into that good night, and we rage, rage against the dying of the light. And all the while, the power lies dormant inside. It’s so stupid – and so tragic.

Oops, got a bit carried away. Although it *is* tragic.

I was reading this blog post: Speaking with “the subconscious”, written six years ago, by a Random Guy on the Internet Who Knows Stuff. :wink:

Those last two paragraphs. Really? Like, really? How? You can teach someone how to do this? Did you ever script it? And if you did, *where is the script*? :shock:

OK, a hypnotist can do it. Can’t deny that, because without being told any content explicitly, I’m experiencing the outcomes of stuff having been lifted from me, through a chat with my subconscious. If all hypnosis is indeed self hypnosis, then it follows that you should, in theory, be able to do this yourself. But even if you can convince yourself it’s possible to do that, then making the leap from doing it in trance - with your second-guessing, inner-critic conscious lulled to “sleep” - to just doing it consciously? That idea’s a *mind-bend*.
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#184

Postby moonlightress » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:41 pm

Armstrong wrote:A quick digression moonlightress, jeg er fra Norge, opprinnelig fra Iraq. Du?

Danmark :) Jeg boede i sydafrika i 43 år, men flyttede hjem igen, for tre år siden.

Now we'd better switch back to English. It's the lingua franca here. :D
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#185

Postby moonlightress » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:29 pm

Armstrong wrote:Do you get used to the different soundtracks?

Yes. Some have specific content/goals. Some are pretty free-form. I have some favorites I listen to many times. I have some favorite voices too; I find the voice makes a difference (some are just irritating). I look for new ones from time to time. I plan to record a tape with my own suggestions, have just been too lazy to get around to doing it.
What is the difference between this, and guided meditation or relaxation? Its called something with guided for sure. What is the difference between meditation and hypnosis?

I'll be upfront: I'm not a hypnotist, only a self-hypnosis enthusiast who's had great benefit from hypnotherapy. So I can only comment on self-hypnosis and buddhist meditation, both of which I have some experience. They're very similar, both mind 'states', but they're subtly different, in goals at least. In meditation you're practising non-attachment to thoughts, in hypnosis you're focusing your concentration on one thought or idea to the exclusion of everything else. I've meditated (in the Tibetan buddhist tradition), enjoyed it, but never really mastered it. I took readily to trance and went easily into hypnosis in my first session. I imagine *guided* meditation and self-hypnosis are very, very close, as opposed to ordinary *non-guided* meditation.

The differences depend on who you ask. Google 'difference between self hypnosis and meditation' and you'll get self hypnosis sites and meditation sites, each giving slightly different definitions, and advantages and disadvantages. I think one suits some people and the other suits others.

With regard to self-hypnosis, ideally, you'd see a hypnotist/hypnotherapist first, to be shown/guided in how to go into hypnosis, then continue with self-hypnosis. That's how I did it anyway.
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#186

Postby moonlightress » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:06 pm

quietvoice wrote:You've also derailed this particular conversation, and perhaps I did as well by responding to your post(s). (Sorry, moonlightress.)


No, you didn't derail it at all, quietvoice, (at least not any more than it's already been derailed now and earlier, by Richard). Thank you for coming in to point this out. :)

Armstrong: (I've been a moderator on other forums and) it is exactly as quietvoice said.

This is because religion and laws are not *absolute*. One religion/law isn't superior to another. No-one has the right to force their law or religion on another, regardless of what their law says. Different people have different religions/beliefs and different laws. There's a saying, "when in Rome, do as Rome does." This means that you follow the laws of where you are. You can't say "my law should also be your law, because my law is righter than your law". That's just plain wrong.

In your home you can set the laws and guests to your home must abide by them. In other people's homes you have to abide by their laws. This applies to countries, as well. And it applies to online communities. So, the laws here on Uncommon Forum are in the Rules/FAQ. They are the highest laws here, regardless of whether you or I agree with them. If we want to be here, we have to follow them. If we don't like the laws, we're free to leave. If we break the laws, we accept the consequences.



Now, p-l-e-a-s-e let's talk about HYPNOSIS....? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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#187

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:29 am

moonlightress wrote: Now, p-l-e-a-s-e let's talk about HYPNOSIS....? :lol: :lol: :lol:


I’m pretty sure that is what I have been talking about. You disagree?

Interesting...and fun. Now disagreement or expressing an opinion about hypnosis you don’t like is “derailing”? When jimmy offers up his help to improve how I communicate my opinions on hypnosis it is not derailing, lol. That gets your approval with a nice like, lol.

This truly is a solid thread that shows exactly why hypnosis is ineffective moonlightress. You prove it again and again, that hypnosis has provided nothing more than a weak belief system that has failed to address your underlying fears. I understand that is difficult to acknowledge, given the time you have invested in hypnosis.

This doesn’t mean you should just throw the baby out with the bath water. You obviously enjoy hypnosis, so that is great. But, hypnosis is not going to resolve any underlying struggles you are facing. At best, it will be a crutch. The next question to ask yourself, when will you move beyond the crutch? What will allow you to walk on your own?

A hint, this forum can help. In fact, I would argue this forum is helping you.
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#188

Postby quietvoice » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:20 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote: Now disagreement or expressing an opinion about hypnosis you don’t like is “derailing”?

As far as I know, she's only referring to my own calling out "Armstrong" for derailing at post #174. Although, maybe he didn't so much derail the topic at the first sentence or two, but then went on talking about how everyone seems to be against him (for his postings about his preferred topic, presumably).
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#189

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:53 am

quietvoice wrote:As far as I know, she's only referring to my own calling out "Armstrong" for derailing at post #174.


Well, jimmy was trying to help me learn how to better communicate with people heavily invested in hypnosis that might be using hypnosis as a crutch. But, technically this was more about effective communication and less about hypnosis. So from the perspective of moonlightress I can see it as a bit of an unintended “derailment” as a side conversation that jimmy was using to educate me. Similar to this post, hoping to clarify the whole “derailment” debacle.

Apologies moonlightress. Let’s get back to focusing on hypnosis and the extent to which it is an effective way to address the fear of failure, etc., etc. I’m sure you will handle it. I mean, I know you can handle it, not in the hypnosis sense, but in the sense that I am directly talking to you in a forum, no hypnosis at all and telling you that you can handle it.
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#190

Postby jimmyh » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:52 am

Well, jimmy was trying to help me learn how to better communicate with people heavily invested in hypnosis that might be using hypnosis as a crutch.


Actually, it was about how to communicate with people in general, and had nothing to do with anyone using hypnosis as a crutch.

And not so much "trying to help" as "pointing out that you're unwilling to do it because it would mean acknowledging that your view might be stupid"/giving you the chance to prove me wrong by doing it.
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#191

Postby jimmyh » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:30 pm

WHY do we think it makes us arrogant or a bad person? Why do we feel we need *permission*?

If you handle things, it can look like it wasn’t really that big a deal to you. Don’t you have a heart?

If you handle things, it means you think you’re worthy of handling it. I couldn’t handle it, do you think you’re better than me?
Those last two paragraphs. Really? Like, really? How? You can teach someone how to do this? Did you ever script it? And if you did, *where is the script*?

I know a lot more things now than I did six years ago when I wrote that ;). Some things have changed, some haven’t.

One of the big things is that I see things as “mostly regulated, if poorly and incoherently” rather than “often unregulated”.
Imagine someone were to say “Man, my factory is running too hot, but I lost the keys so I can’t get in to adjust the thermostat”. If you simply take this at face value, then it seems that the thermostat setpoint is unregulated, and if you can find a way in and change it, the change will persist and be helpful (or not, depending on whether you chose a good new value). If you hand them the keys, you’d expect them to say “thanks!” and go adjust it for themselves.

If you realize that it’s not actually their factory at all, and that this is *why* they don’t have the keys, then all of a sudden your expectations change. If you adjust this thermostat, it’ll almost certainly get changed back, and might have unintended consequences in the meantime. If you give them the keys, they might not be so keen to go in and change things, despite their words.

When things are actively regulated (even poorly), it becomes necessary to deal with the regulating body and it becomes *unnecessary* to actually go adjust thermostats yourself. Simply convince the regulator to do it themselves.

As it applies here, it no longer seems weird that I could give people these keys and have them not say “holy sh** this is amazing” and then go on to do lots of great things with it. It kinda seems more like giving the keys to the guy who owns the factory, not the guy who is paid to understand and run the damn thing. Of course he isn’t going to know what to do with them.

I still think that there is a good amount of stuff where the door is closed and people can be taught to walk in and “just fix things”, but that it has to be done quite differently if you want them to actually make use of it much.

These days I kinda just talk about the things that you can do, and don’t take seriously the idea that the door is “locked”.
For example, over the weekend we had the brakes go out on a ranger and though the driver did the exact right thing, still my friend got pretty banged up in the crash and wasn’t sure he was going to be able to sleep well due to the pain. “Man, this pain is going to wake me up, and that would be bad [and I don’t feel like I can change this]” kind of thing. I just talked to him for a couple minutes along the lines of “But you wouldn’t *need* to wake up, right? I mean, you cleaned and dressed your wounds well, so it’s not like if you slept through the night there would be any *problems* or anything, right? Nothing you might *need* to wake up and address?”. “Oh, no. It’s fine. It’s taken care of”. “Okay, good. So you can just sleep through the night and if it hurts it hurts, but it’s nothing worth waking up for since sleep is more important right now”. “Yeah”. “Good. So do you think you’re going to sleep fine?” “Yeah, I think I’ll be good”.

It’s that easy. However, that’s how you have to do it. You can’t just say “pain begone!” or the pain will start saying “**** you” in return. What needs to be taught isn’t “here are the keys”, but “There is no lock, just go in and talk to the guy who is regulating things. He’s reasonable”. It’s a little different to teach that, but it’s teachable too.

The way I teach it these days is partly by walking people through some examples like that so that they can see how it works, and also to just reside in the frame that it’s completely doable and that there is no locked door. If *I* don’t think there’s any reason people can’t do something, and I’ve earned their respect as someone who wouldn’t be wrong about something like that, then they just know it’s an option. No “hypnosis” necessary, even for things you might normally think of as “hypnotic phenomena”.

As far as “scripting” and mass production, I don’t think I ever did script that one. Or if I did, it’s buried somewhere on some hard drive somewhere, and it’d be quicker just to redo it :P. Only this time I’d do things much differently and expect to need many many more words to give something that will be across the board useful and actually implemented, so it’d be more like “a book” than “a quick conversation with a chatbot”. Though both the hypnobot and “choose your own adventure” books are basically flow charts, and that is a pretty neat idea. I’ve been wanting to write a book and struggling to figure out how best to organize the information given the various issues with any fixed order I’ve been able to come up with. “Choose your own adventure” style has come up, but seeing it more as a “have your adventure chosen for you with your input”/”book form conversation with the hypnobot” I think might be the shift of frame that allows this to all work. It’s still an intimidating challenge, but at least the plan doesn’t have any visible holes yet. Thanks for the inspiration :)

If all hypnosis is indeed self hypnosis, then it follows that you should, in theory, be able to do this yourself.

Hah. When you can hypnotize people without them without their knowledge or consent for things that they continue to believe are impossible even after the fact, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say *all* hypnosis is self hypnosis. It takes two to tango, but it only takes one willing participant to suplex the unwilling one.

But yes, it’s something you can do yourself.
But even if you can convince yourself it’s possible to do that, then making the leap from doing it in trance - with your second-guessing, inner-critic conscious lulled to “sleep” - to just doing it consciously? That idea’s a *mind-bend*


Well, the thing is, you already know it’s possible. Because I’m taking it for granted, and you know that it’s quite unlikely I’d be saying this if it weren’t true. You still have to figure out how to accept that, but it’s a significantly different thing than trying to figure out if it’s possible or not.

It’s not really a matter of doing it in the face of an active inner critic, it’s that you shut the bitch up in a slightly different way. Instead of saying “shh, sleep now darling”, you just look at her and say “do you have a point. If you do, I’ll listen”. It just kinda becomes *normal* to have the room to think and consider these things. Can you imagine what *that* would be like?

To just have space to work consciously and unconsciously because the inner critic isn’t going to say anything unless she actually has something worth stopping to listen to?
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#192

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:15 am

jimmyh wrote:And not so much "trying to help" as "pointing out that you're unwilling to do it because it would mean acknowledging that your view might be stupid"/giving you the chance to prove me wrong by doing it.


Thanks for taking the time and putting in the effort to point it out jimmy. I really appreciate you giving it a try. Anyway, back to hypnosis so as to not be accused of my responding to your offer to educate me as “derailing”.


No “hypnosis” necessary, even for things you might normally think of as “hypnotic phenomena”.


This is where I agree with jimmyh. He has this great concept of Willy Wonky’s chocolate factory and handling the thermostat. It is the same concept as type I/II error, but it is a better narrative in my opinion. No “hypnosis” necessary. Rather it is talking to someone, building rapport, gaining their trust, and then making suggestions that nudge them to deal with the thermostat. This is what therapists do and this is what he is doing with you moonlightress. It is a solid approach, avoiding type I/II error.

Of course this approach has the self-fulfilling *feel* good flaw that when the friend wakes up after a good night of sleep, it is a big checkmark in the win column for the “keys to the factory” method. But, if the friend doesn’t experience a good nights sleep, then it is no fault of jimmy’s method, but rather the person just wasn’t ready or didn’t implement the advice correctly, or some other variable was slightly off. It is explained away as just too complex. This is the same error made in hypnosis.

For instance, jimmy would blame his inability to educate or “point out” things to me as my failure. It is my unwillingness to open my mind to the wisdom jimmy offers. In my case, it is not jimmy’s method or approach that needs improvement, because he can point to all the cases where a friend has thanked jimmy for his advice. It is classic attribution error, where a person takes credit for success and rationalizes away any failure to external variables beyond their control.

I make the same error as do hypnotists, as does jimmy. Attribution error is a common cognitive bias.
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#193

Postby moonlightress » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:29 am

jimmyh wrote:... It just kinda becomes *normal* to have the room to think and consider these things. Can you imagine what *that* would be like?

2+2=5. Predictably, the drop arrived. (Actually, it started happening when I read the blog post.)

Funny enough, just this morning I listened to a tape that went: <induction> "Imagine you're standing in front of a door labelled "Your subconscious mind". Now imagine yourself opening that door."

The possibility, yes. The accepting, however, involves a substantial restructuring of my map and that's non-trivial because it has far-reaching implications. I'm alternately reeling (read: tranced whenever I think about it) and pushing it away, trying to work out *if* I can handle *that*.

Would you consider walking me through a few more examples?
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#194

Postby moonlightress » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:48 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Apologies moonlightress. Let’s get back to focusing on hypnosis and the extent to which it is an effective way to address the fear of failure, etc., etc. I’m sure you will handle it. I mean, I know you can handle it, not in the hypnosis sense, but in the sense that I am directly talking to you in a forum, no hypnosis at all and telling you that you can handle it.


jimmyh wrote:( Post #89: ) To continue with the explanation, the idea is that once you can look at the situation and realize that you don’t *have to* defend yourself, you can start looking at the question of whether this information is expected to be true and useful, and how strongly. Sometimes the answer will be “this person doesn’t know what they’re talking about, so I’m not gonna try too hard to make sense of what they’re saying” ... For example, if a five year old says “2+2=5”, you just think “silly kid, it’s four”.
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