Question: Self-hypnosis in deep states

#150

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:38 am

jimmyh wrote:You’re suggesting that someone might get so attached to their favorite method of solving problems that once all the problems are solved they have to make new ones so as to not set down their favorite problem solver? No, I have never seen that (with “hypnosis” or otherwise), and it does not seem like a very coherent problem to me.


I must have missed something, or my memory is misattributing you to having at one point referred to the adage, “if all you have is a hammer everything begins to look like a nail.”

I think it is a very common problem, both at the individual and organizational level. People don’t want to surrender a tool they have invested a lot of time/resources into. But, if you see it differently then it is one of those things where I guess we are both looking up at the sky and seeing two different colors. That happens.
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#151

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:49 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote: I also believe it is rather easy to see why you...or anyone else for that matter....might selectively claim any opinions they don’t like are not valid, because the individual making the observations doesn’t know your full background, but then fails to apply that same standard to advice that you like. It is very, very common.


moonlightress wrote:All he knew of me was from a short two-sentence comment. Since he had no background whatsoever he couldn’t know whether I was headed into a hare-brained scheme, whether I was at all capable of making a success of it, or a host of other factors.


Well, that didn’t take long to prove my point.

A person has two sentences during a live stream on YouTube and you believe his opinion is to be relished as having some sort of credible insight. But, an opinion you don’t like...well their data set is simply woefully inadequate as they don’t have your full story.
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#152

Postby moonlightress » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:03 pm

jimmyh wrote:That all seems close enough to me, I’ll sign off on that. It seems like you’re getting it :)

I’m excited to see what comes of it.

I’ve lost count of how many hours I’ve been thinking - about what happened with James as it relates to what we did earlier and everything we’ve been talking about, but I think I’ve come up with some insights. And I think they might be something that’s come of it. :D

The incident was directly relevant to what we did, because it was about deciding how to accept suggestions, taking what I’d learned from hypnosis and applying it on the spot. And in doing so, I think the last pennies dropped, of what I hadn’t understood before. And of course, it wasn’t nearly as complicated as my over-thinking mind was making it... :roll:

The topic of James’ video was about fear and how fear of failure holds us back. How failure could be reframed, and some ideas about how to do it. When I saw the notification and title “Overcome fear of failure – hypnosis vs life” come up on my phone, I thought, hey, this is a relevant topic for me and maybe I'll learn something useful, so let me go hear what he has to say. Learning how to reframe my fear of a "what-if-I-fail" situation sounded fantastic because if my plan goes pear-shaped, I might well need that.

The first 12 or so minutes were very useful, and along the way, I had decided it was ok to discard my critical impulses; this guy had made some good points. I wrote the comment "Listening with great interest, thanks. I’m planning to buy a clinic, a very big “what-if” and it’s scary”, and I suppose it was on-topic enough to be a handy example for him to use, to talk about what he does with the fear-driven "what-if-I-fail” situation he was talking about.

So even before he’d got to “Karen’s just said this” and "you'll handle it", I'd already decided he was worth listening to; I was already receptive. Of course, he was talking to everybody, just using my comment, but still, it was very startling to have his point addressed directly to me, and I think that suddenly and unexpectedly hearing my name and my words, landed as a kind of “instant ‘shock’ induction” :lol: (entirely my own doing, no intention of his) and so I got the “drop” feeling. I think the very direct, emphatic tone had something to do with it as well. It was about as direct as direct suggestion can get. (It reminds me of what you wrote earlier about permanosis, “Once someone has been hypnotized, they’ve learned how to respond to hypnotic suggestions, and just the way it’s delivered alone can trigger the effect”.)

But the point is that even though it wasn’t intended as hypnotic suggestion and even though I was caught by surprise by the turn it took and by my ‘drop’ reaction, I'd already critically assessed that it'd be both safe and useful; so it was ok to go along with the drop and deal with the subsequent suggestions in “hypnosis mode”. Looking back, I think I made a good judgment call.

I’m laughing now at this realization: the surrealness of the timing of it, was coming from within the drop (trance! let’s just tell it like it is!); the “how can this be happening right now and be so relevant, given I’m just chilling here in my dorm room in Denmark, having impulsively clicked through to a live-stream video from the UK, just out of curiosity?” --- but since I’d told him all he needed to know, “I’m planning to buy a clinic, a very big “what-if” and it’s scary”, duhhh, of course what he replied to that, was directly relevant… hahaha that’s funny now. (hey, I’m not claiming I was at the top of my critical game. “I can’t help it, I was hypnotized.”) :lol:

You were looking at it from the point of view of watching how he was doing what he was doing; I was only watching for the content. I can see how it could be problematic in the way you describe, but I think because of how I interpreted it, I got loads out of it. I’m claiming that for myself anyway. I’ll have those suggestions, thanks. :D

But back to how it’s relevant here.

jimmyh wrote:The thing to take from formal hypnosis is the ability to discard your critical impulses when you can see them to be irrelevant… …
You, with your experience with hypnosis, can just be like “here comes the drop”, because you recognize that there’s nothing there to reject or be overly critical of. You still have to make the decision of whether to respond in hypnosis mode or critical mode or defensive mode or what, but you can make that decision beforehand and the path has already been seen and carved for you to actually accept things when you can see that they’re worth accepting.


The whole discussion around how to decide how to respond to suggestions has been extremely valuable to me, because I am generally in some form of “partial permanosis" these days and obviously you can’t walk around in the world being permeable and permanotic and not have your critical faculty/BS detector turned on. But if you turn that up too high, you can miss some good stuff and your life can go by, missing a ton of good stuff. My whole hypnosis ‘journey’ has been about being receptive, especially after the sessions with Ines, and then the spiritual aspect coming into it, too. I’m really listening and watching and noticing how stuff that happens around me, can be harnessed and applied meaningfully, wrt this pursuit. And I don’t think my receptive "permanosis” is a bad thing at all. I’ve learnt how to really let good suggestions in and let them make very desirable changes. In fact, I'm really glad to have it and intend to keep it. As long as I retain an astute doorman (who can be a streetwise bouncer if needed) to check credentials at the door, it’s quite safe to be open.

That critical faculty that hypnosis tries to bypass, because it defends and resists the change it sees as a threat, isn't necessarily a hindrance - if you use it to assess the situation and the suggestions first and then allow it to recede into the background so the subconscious can work on debugging the code. That way the conscious and subconscious are actually working in synch with each other and there's no need to sneak around or play one off against the other. You're consciously motivated to accept suggestions if they're leading to where you consciously want to go. So, if you can show the conscious that it’s safe and ok to accept the suggestions, and safe and ok to let the subconscious do what it does best, maybe you don’t even necessarily have to lull the conscious into trance, to get it to step aside? Is it conceivable that you could use the hypnosis model of how the mind works, to…..…. not even need hypnosis??

…. am I actually starting to understand something of what you've been trying to show me, for months now?? The irony won’t be lost on you, I’m sure, of your saying "I'm not a fan", then the whole incident with James turning out to have led me back to some understanding of your ideas. :lol:

---

So, to go r-i-i-i-ght back to post #44:

jimmyh wrote:To me, the kind of “courage” we’re talking about here isn’t so much “the ability to withstand overwhelming fear and plow forward anyway”, but just “the ability to feel the fear, say ‘wow, that’s scary! Maybe even dangerous!’”, and then go on with your life non-overwhelmed because the fear isn’t the *only* thing, nor is it the most important thing in the moment. You clearly have plenty of that kind of courage, given that you can put it all aside and go into a deep trance where fear just isn’t an issue. Since you do so well when you allow yourself to turn down the “importance” of your fears until they just disappear, why not allow yourself do it outside the special context of “hypnosis” as well? (my underlining)


Well now, since you put it that way… (and I see now, it even has sugar on it, I really did have a lapse of thought!) … I hadn’t put those things together before. I hadn’t looked at it from that angle. But you have a good point. I can’t think of any reasons why I don’t allow that? That’s a really good idea, thanks. Think I’ll do that!

(*Next time* of course, I’ll take the short cut…!)
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#153

Postby moonlightress » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:10 pm

Just as an aside….

You have to admit though, it’s pretty uncanny and interesting, the timing of him saying this:

“So know this and know this deeply, your what-if, the answer is, you’ll handle it. You’ll handle it by coordinating your resources and resourcefulness. Now, knowing that you can, this is the essence of what I would call “groundedness”, knowing that you can handle anything that comes up.”

…and me having written, in essence, the exact same thing, when trying to describe the shift after I had the realization:

“It’s a kind of resting in myself? A feeling of rediscovering a piece of solid ground inside that you’d forgotten was there, that makes it not matter that there’re angry people you don’t have control over. That you don’t have to have control over them, because if you needed to react to something they said, you’d have that solid ground to stand on?” (In other words: you'll be able to handle it.)
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#154

Postby jimmyh » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:33 am

I also believe it is rather easy to see why you...or anyone else for that matter....might selectively claim any opinions they don’t like are not valid, because the individual making the observations doesn’t know your full background, but then fails to apply that same standard to advice that you like. It is very, very common.


This is a perfect example of confirmation bias. It’s something you’ve no doubt seen a lot, and if you don’t look that closely it kinda looks like that’s what’s going on here, so you don’t test to see if it’s *not* this, and jump to the conclusion.

When I suggested you try my wording, the point wasn’t “she likes this better”. I wanted you to see the actual difference it makes in how people respond to you. It’s a way to test whether it’s *not* just about your opinions being “too disagreeable”. You didn’t do the test, but what you would have found is that you would have been able to present the exact same opinion and not gotten “you don’t have the full picture”. I still encourage you to actually try the test so you can see what I mean.

What’s actually going on is that my wording communicates an awareness that I could be missing an critical piece of the picture. Because of that, my wording doesn’t get the response “you don’t have the whole picture”. It’s obvious that I know that, so there’s no reason to say it. When your wording communicates a confidence in your perspective that is not supported by your lack of information/insight, then “you don’t see the whole picture” is actually the necessary next step if the conversation is going to get anywhere.

In fact, in my years on the forum I have never once seen a person use the “you don’t know my entire story” rational when the opinion offered up is something with which they agree. It is only ever offered as a defense to opinions that a person finds disagreeable. Again, totally understandable.


You’ve seen it right here. You just didn’t recognize it.

Earlier in this thread moonlighttress seemed to be getting the impression that some of the things I said demonstrate *kindness*. I do agree and I do not find that to be a disagreeable opinion. Yet she did not know my whole story, and I had to share the security guard story to emphasize that what she’s seeing is willingness to be ruthless, not simply dedication to kindness.

She also did not at all agree with my “you clearly already have the courage” statement, and she started suggesting other things that I might not have known that would change things. She did not “agree”, but it certainly wasn’t an opinion she found “disagreeable”.
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#155

Postby jimmyh » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:38 am

jimmyh wrote:
You’re suggesting that someone might get so attached to their favorite method of solving problems that once all the problems are solved they have to make new ones so as to not set down their favorite problem solver? No, I have never seen that (with “hypnosis” or otherwise), and it does not seem like a very coherent problem to me.


I must have missed something, or my memory is misattributing you to having at one point referred to the adage, “if all you have is a hammer everything begins to look like a nail.”

I think it is a very common problem, both at the individual and organizational level. People don’t want to surrender a tool they have invested a lot of time/resources into. But, if you see it differently then it is one of those things where I guess we are both looking up at the sky and seeing two different colors. That happens.



Yes, “if all you have is a hammer”. I’m not denying your observation that people whack on things that aren’t nails. I’m saying that they’re not doing it for the reason you think they are. To continue the metaphor “Yes, the sky is that color. No, that is not why”
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#156

Postby jimmyh » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:41 pm

The whole discussion around how to decide how to respond to suggestions has been extremely valuable to me, because I am generally in some form of “partial permanosis" these days and obviously you can’t walk around in the world being permeable and permanotic and not have your critical faculty/BS detector turned on. But if you turn that up too high, you can miss some good stuff and your life can go by, missing a ton of good stuff. My whole hypnosis ‘journey’ has been about being receptive, especially after the sessions with Ines, and then the spiritual aspect coming into it, too. I’m really listening and watching and noticing how stuff that happens around me, can be harnessed and applied meaningfully, wrt this pursuit. And I don’t think my receptive "permanosis” is a bad thing at all. I’ve learnt how to really let good suggestions in and let them make very desirable changes. In fact, I'm really glad to have it and intend to keep it. As long as I retain an astute doorman (who can be a streetwise bouncer if needed) to check credentials at the door, it’s quite safe to be open.


Yep :)

It also doesn’t mean you aren’t going to screw up and let things in which you shouldn’t have, despite your best efforts. It doesn’t have to. You just gotta figure out how you want to balance those risks.

That critical faculty that hypnosis tries to bypass, because it defends and resists the change it sees as a threat, isn't necessarily a hindrance - if you use it to assess the situation and the suggestions first and then allow it to recede into the background so the subconscious can work on debugging the code. That way the conscious and subconscious are actually working in synch with each other and there's no need to sneak around or play one off against the other. You're consciously motivated to accept suggestions if they're leading to where you consciously want to go. So, if you can show the conscious that it’s safe and ok to accept the suggestions, and safe and ok to let the subconscious do what it does best, maybe you don’t even necessarily have to lull the conscious into trance, to get it to step aside? Is it conceivable that you could use the hypnosis model of how the mind works, to…..…. not even need hypnosis??


Yep!

…. am I actually starting to understand something of what you've been trying to show me, for months now?? The irony won’t be lost on you, I’m sure, of your saying "I'm not a fan", then the whole incident with James turning out to have led me back to some understanding of yourideas.

Hehe. Again, I’m not saying that he doesn’t get some things right or that he’s not worth listening to and learning from. He definitely has insights worth sharing. I’m saying that he shuts things out too, which can be really really bad if you end up needing/wanting to go there, and don’t notice/allow yourself to move on leaving him in the dust :P



I had to give a verbal ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to the clinic owner in July, before my second session with Ines, and I *gambled* on having gained enough courage and belief in myself, from self hypnosis and if necessary, further sessions with Ines, by the time it came to going ahead with it. (Hence the ego strengthening self hypnosis I came asking about.) “Gamble” was the operative word, there was no certainty I’d cope and I was actually terrified.


Awesome. That leap of faith surely took some courage :p

(Isn’t that a hypnotic strategy? Say a bunch of true stuff so you have the subject agreeing, and then slip in the suggestion?)


Yep. Doesn't have to be "sneaky" though. A lot of times people haven't fully worked out the implications of their beliefs. Starting with A->B, B->C, C->D... may all seem obviously true, but by the time you get to ->E, you'll have pointed out that A->E, which they had not realized before.

The fact that you've been saying true things *is* valid evidence that what you're going to say next is also going to be true, and is therefore reason to shift focus a little bit towards "engaging with" and away from "rejecting". As long as you don't try to wait until you see people believing you in order to slip in something that you know they'd disagree with upon reflection, it's not dishonest.

I didn’t hear any kind of guarantee that I wouldn’t fail. That possibility wasn’t going to, and won’t disappear. The statement “you’ve handled everything before, because you’re here” is obviously true. [...] I’ve not always handled everything well, but I didn’t hear “handled” as “meaningfully handled” or even necessarily “well handled”. Just handled, in the sense that it won’t crush me. Whatever happens, I’ll deal with it, whether that’s well, or badly. If it goes belly-up, it would be very hard, sure, but I’d get up again. I’ve fallen and got up again many times, and I’m thriving and living a happy life. And if I fail and lose it all, that failure can be reframed to “I dared to do it. I might have failed, but I had the guts to dream and to dare, and the guts to risk failing and still get up again” - and that, now that would be a victory, not a failure. The argument will hold either way.


Yes, he doesn’t make the mistake of saying “You’ll succeed because you *believe*!”. Yes, he does get the first step past this in saying “things might not go turn out the way you’d like, and you may not handle things *well* but you will *handle* them — because you always have”.

And that is likely true. For you, in this context.

It is not always true.

It’s certainly not true by definition.

People come back from war broken and dead inside. They come back and lose their wives, because their wives are already mourning their husband who doesn’t exist anymore, having lost his soul in Iraq. People drink away their relationships with their wives and sons, and eventually drink away their own life, after draining away the things they valued most from it. If the word “handled” is to mean anything at all, these people can’t be said to have “handled” things. It’s not that they didn’t handle it *well*, it’s that they didn’t handle it. Period. The issue remains unhandled, and actively weighs them down, if it has not killed them completely yet.

Lest you think I’m talking about only the extreme cases, I am not. Adversity *can* be a stimulus for growth. What doesn’t kill you *can* make you stronger.

Not everyone comes out stronger. Sometimes they just come out “not dead *yet*”, just one step closer. It’s not always obvious. These people will smile. They’ll act like nothing is wrong, and often they’ll really believe it and be unable to understand their problems. But their problems are still *there*. Unhandled.

Try talking to them though. Ask about the thing that f***ed them up. The ways it binds them will become obvious. While it doesn’t completely kill everyone, it does weigh them down to accumulate unhandled sh**. It can be something that only comes out on a certain anniversary and in certain infrequent conversations, or it can cost a very large part of the meaning and value of your life. I know one woman, for example, who was so traumatized by being dumped for the first time that she married the one man who she knew wouldn’t. Not because he had the virtue of “loyalty”, but because he has absolutely no virtues whatsoever, and therefore no options. Dumb, unattractive, selfish, charmless, you name it. And arrogant to top it off. Imagine marrying the hotel clerk and bearing his children so that you can avoid the fear of being dumped for your inability to handle your *other* issues that drove your last boyfriend away. Imagine being married to someone who is such an arrogant a**hole that “you’re an idiot” becomes the only thing left to be said after he pushes his way into someone else’s conversation. Imagine being unable to defend him by saying “he’s *not* an idiot” or “hey, that’s *unnecessarily* mean”, and being so unable to handle the fact that it’s true and necessary that you resort to contentless anger so that you don’t have to address your life situation.

Going back in time, it seems like this woman *should have* felt that fear of being unable to handle things, when getting involved in the relationship whose ending broke her. Literally speaking, she *can’t* look back and say “I handled that break up”, because she can’t look, and nothing about it was handled at all. Figuratively speaking, I don’t think she would be able to look back at it and say “yep, I was right to be fearless”. The only honest answer is that her inability to handle that breakup has been so costly that fear would have been *justified* in holding her back and saying “You’re not ready for this relationship yet. If he dumps you, you won’t be able to handle it”. Even if you take away the option of preparing oneself and *then* going for it, she would have been far better off avoiding it completely and probably ending up marrying someone with some virtues and some risk of leaving her.

I’m glad “I might not handle this” doesn’t describe you, at least with respect to opening a clinic. It does describe some people in some situations, and Tripp made no distinction and had no way of knowing which group you’re in. This is *really really bad* for anyone in those situations.

The *best* case, by far, is that the person is smart enough to say “Tripp is an idiot. He doesn’t know that I will handle this. My being here is not proof that I have handled everything in the past, and it would be a mistake to listen to him”. As a general rule, if the smart thing to do is ever to respond to you by saying “he’s an idiot, and it would be a mistake to listen to him”, then you’re doing it wrong.

Less good cases would be if the person actually does believe Tripp, either out of ignorance or out of hope, and ends up permanently or semi-permanently broken, and weaker for the experience. Or if the person *starts* to believe Tripp, but then things start to take a turn for the worse and their ability to believe is now broken because he will be unable to process their valid reason for doubt. At least they won’t be object level broken, but they will have lost trust in their ability to believe and to trust “experts” who say they can, and that’s a costly thing to chip away at.

I’m a huge proponent of challenging oneself, knowing and trusting that you’ll make it out the other side stronger even when you fail. It is important to give yourself permission to fail and to grow, and people very often fail to appreciate their own robustness and courage. A large part of being robust and showing courage is knowing that you have it. Simply pointing people at the question and saying “*can* you handle this?” can get people to *realize* that they can, and to be able to act with courage they didn’t know they had. Pointing at the question and saying “*can* you handle this” has a strong tendency to get a true “yes”, even if the person wouldn’t have handled things otherwise. Because now they see it as a thing to handle, and a thing that they *might* be able to handle, if they ensure they do. They can now do their homework, make the appropriate considerations, and pre-accept the possibility of failure, so that when it hits them they aren’t blindsided and without a lifeboat.

I think *you* can handle your clinic not working out as hoped. I think as a general rule, when you sit people down, give them permission to handle failure, and ask “are you ready for the possibility of failure”, most people will eventually be able to tell you “yes”, and be justified. Because they actively prepare and *make sure* they can handle it.

The moment you start actively sweeping under the rug the possibility of being broken and *not* standing fully straight again is the moment you knowingly or unknowingly commit evil. Yes, “You’ll be fine, even if you get into a fender bender” can help a lot of people lose their fear of driving, to the extent that they believe you. Yes, you’ll help far more people than you’ll hurt. The people who hurt though, will be *real* hurt. Some people will die, and to the extent that they chose to drive because you tricked them into believing that the worst that could happen was a bent bumper so they didn’t prepare *enough*, their blood is on your hands. I just hope that the people who are most at risk aren’t charmed enough to believe his shenanigans.

That’s why I can’t *just* say “oh yeah, he has lots of good things to say, and I’m glad you got something out of it”. I can say that too, because it’s true, but the way he answered that calls for a pretty serious warning, because the hypnotist failure mode isn’t a good one.
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#157

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:49 am

jimmyh wrote:This is a perfect example of confirmation bias... you don’t test to see if it’s *not* this, and jump to the conclusion.

You didn’t do the test,

You’ve seen it right here. You just didn’t recognize it.

“Yes, the sky is that color. No, that is not why”


And what conclusions have you jumped to jimmy? What test did I conduct that you failed to recognize? What test did you fail to do?

To continue the metaphor(s) the door swings both ways. The same as we disagree on the color of the sky, the lack of understanding why can also work both ways and be a result of your failing to recognize or test, or your jumping to a conclusion.

I think we are using different metrics for what success means. We interpret this thread very differently. I see a discussion of YouTube hypnosis and don’t interpret it as a success story in the column of hypnosis. Yet, I completely understand why someone might disagree with me.
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#158

Postby jimmyh » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:44 am

By all means, if you see something I've missed, fill me in. I don't intend to miss things, you know.
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#159

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:09 am

I don’t say “missed something”. I think you are fully aware of the double standard you applied.
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#160

Postby moonlightress » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:21 pm

jimmyh wrote:That’s why I can’t *just* say “oh yeah, he has lots of good things to say, and I’m glad you got something out of it”. I can say that too, because it’s true, but the way he answered that calls for a pretty serious warning, because the hypnotist failure mode isn’t a good one.

I was moved to tears by your warning.

And I'm so glad you made this very important point, for expanding on it with examples and for your concern for those who need to hear what you said, and not just what I said.

Thank you...
---

Sentimental moment: forgive me, I just can't help it. It brought this to my mind.

"I live for those who love me, for those who know me true;
....
For the cause that lacks assistance, for the wrong that needs resistance,
for the future in the distance, and the good that I can do.”
- George Linnaeus Banks

... and I'm enjoying Nate Soares. Interesting in terms of timing, this link from one of his articles was open in my browser when I read what you wrote.
Should you reverse any advice you hear?
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#161

Postby moonlightress » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:59 pm

jimmyh wrote:It also doesn’t mean you aren’t going to screw up and let things in which you shouldn’t have, despite your best efforts. It doesn’t have to. You just gotta figure out how you want to balance those risks.

That tightrope walk is the story of my life. Being open to influence can blow you around and slam you into hard objects sometimes, but it also lifts and takes you to beautiful places you'd never have seen if you'd closed yourself off. I prefer it this way and I'll take the concussions.

Awesome. That leap of faith surely took some courage :p

Two words: Tooth decay! :lol:
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#162

Postby jimmyh » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:10 pm

What test did I conduct that you failed to recognize?

I don’t say “missed something”. I think you are fully aware of the double standard you applied.

:roll:

I’m not sure how much you believe your own accusation, but okay, I’ll play along and answer your questions
And what conclusions have you jumped to jimmy?

I do not think I have jumped to *any* conclusions.
What test did I conduct that you failed to recognize?

I do not think you’ve done *any* test that I’ve failed to recognize.
What test did you fail to do?

I do not think I have failed to do *any* relevant test.

I don’t think any of that exists, and if you can point to even one example, I will certainly have missed something.

And I think you know this. I think you’re just offended again, and just making stuff up to help distract from what were some very solid points I made in those responses. I don’t think less of you for not already knowing these things. Just as I don’t think less of Moonlightress for floundering around a bit and missing some of my points at first. Or of myself when I catch myself doing some silly bit of motivated cognition. I’ll *laugh* at myself, obviously, but I’m laughing *with* myself too. “Isn’t it funny that I used to think that was convincing?”. Funny, yes. And embarrassing too :P. Both lack of knowledge and motivated cognition are very human things to do from time to time, and it doesn’t make anyone deserving of contempt — just of help.

It’s also okay if you want better of yourself, and therefore don’t like it being pointed out and pushed in your face too strongly. I can be more gentle with you if you want. I just found it too funny that you’re so aggressively “anti-sugarcoating” while requiring so much of it yourself. This whole conversation with you has been an exercise in seeing if you’ll engage with my points if they’re delivered delicately enough (to your credit, you did), and then seeing if you can keep it up when I back off on the sugar a little bit. My bluntness from “this is a perfect example of confirmation bias” onwards isn’t me judging you, it’s me *teasing* you, by backing off the sugar and highlighting the irony of your behavior in light of your words. I’m not even teasing you so that you’ll feel bad or to put you down. I don’t care. It’s an invitation to not take yourself so seriously. You don’t have to take it, but the offer is real, nonetheless.

Lighten up and join the fun. :)
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#163

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:05 am

jimmyh wrote:Lighten up and join the fun.


I’m deep in the fun. What caused you to fail to recognize this? Why would you conclude your test results were accurate? Might you be jumping to conclusions?

You wanted an example. Your “lighten up and join the fun” is exhibit A.

Let the fun continue.
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#164

Postby moonlightress » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:34 pm

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Jimmy meant the light-hearted, good-natured "be a sport and grin at your own human foibles, and we'll all go have a beer together and laugh about how absurd life is" kind of fun.
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