Post-hypnotism

#30

Postby moonlightress » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:00 pm

Interesting. Two nights in a row now, I've been listening to some James Ramey (he who was the student of Walter Sichort) sessions, trying to have a specific experience. It's still chilly here, so I climb in under the duvet. They are in ultradepth, so by the time I'm well in, I can't/don't want to move a single muscle. Totally limp. Then along comes TOO HOT....

So there I lie, with half my brain going "TOO HOT, TOO HOT!" and the other half going "Yeah, I hear you, but I'm busy here, you'll have to sort it out yourself".

The latter wins; I'm really too deep to care. So I guess I've found out what happens if I don't do anything. It's more uncomfortable (actually it's VERY uncomfortable) and it takes much longer to cool down. But I can turn my attention away from it, because the tape and the experience are more interesting. It must be possible to just stay asleep.
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#31

Postby jimmyh » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:26 pm

The thing is though, that strong hot flushes do go very rapidly from "totally fine" to "OMG, I'm on fire" and I am asleep when this transition happens, so it makes sense to me that I only wake up when, and because, it's WAY TOO HOT. That’s not odd.


The *perception* changes rapidly. Yes, you’re used to that. However, doesn’t it seem odd that your body temperature would be stable for hours and then all of a sudden rapidly spike up to legitimately unacceptable temperatures? I mean, maybe it’s real, but it at least sounds strange enough that I’d be curious if it’s really happening.

It's difficult to have any sense of it when I'm asleep and I don’t have an answer to your question of “what might have happened if you’d not cooled off”. (Can't I pull the "I couldn't help what happened, I was hypnotised/asleep card? )


...But you woke up. You don’t have to answer it while you’re asleep, you can answer it now by looking back to what it was like when you woke up and imagining what might have happened if you hadn’t cooled off.

I must say, at this point, I’m in agreement that waking me up to throw off the duvet is a sensible thing for my body to do, if it's really needed. I'm inclined to trust the control room guy’s judgment call on those strong ones.

Right. And that very well may be a sensible thing to do. I’m not trying to change your mind, just to show you that this isn’t necessarily the end of the road.

It’s worth noting that just because you weren’t listening well and were discounting the strength of the other side’s evidence doesn’t mean you’re wrong. You can get blown off for good reason even when you’re right, and listening better does not *necessarily* mean you have to change your mind. It just means that you listen until they say “okay, you get it, I trust you”. At that point, if you still don’t agree…


... then what?

Then you can say “here’s why don’t agree” to open ears, and see what happens.


[...]I’m okay with waiting until it really is necessary and letting the milder ones rise and fall by themselves without needing a response". So maybe I'm giving up too easily on seeing how much further I can influence this? I'm pretty chuffed with what has happened already.


If you’re happy you’re happy, and that’s great. I just want to make sure it’s clear that if you were to decide you wanted *less* hot flashes, this path continues further.

Just don’t go telling people that talking to me on the forum only got rid of *some* of your hot flashes, without mentioning that you chose to keep the rest :p

(Complete non sequitur: do you lucid dream? I've never mastered it; I bought 3 books and tried and tried, but couldn't.)


I used to, until I lost interest. It’s kinda a trip. Especially the wake induced lucid dream, which has to have been the biggest mind **** I’ve ever experienced.

I found that lucid dreams were fairly simple to induce, actually. Direct suggestion was most often enough, which has some interesting implications. One way I’d do it is just state as a matter of fact “I am going to have a lucid dream tonight”. I even had a lucid dream the night I told someone “The way I lucid dream is by saying [...]”, which was neat and unexpected.

What happens if you just try direct suggestion?

I don’t understand. Is this different from the above?

I was suggesting that maybe your temperature was climbing *slowly*, and that you just didn’t notice it until it was over the line. If this is the case, then maybe the solution is to notice sooner.


Yeah, I did go and look at thermometers, but they are too damn sophisticated and expensive now. What happened to the old oral thermometers with (was it mercury?) in them, that you could pick up for a few bucks? If I find something a bit cheaper, I'll buy it.


They’re still around. I dunno about where you live, but here but you can get a digital oral thermometer for $5 or so. Maybe your country sucks or something :P

5-7 bpm doesn't sound all that healthy; hope that isn't your normal state of affairs. What is your normal pulse rate? If you’re a fit guy, it can be much lower than normal, sure, but 5-7 sounds alarming to me, as a nurse. Then again, you do some other unusual stuff, so maybe…


I meant “down [by] 5-7 bpm”, not “down [to] 5-7 bpm”. If I’m lying down and resting I might get down to 53-55, and by intentionally trying to slow my heart further I might be able to get down to 48. Maybe one or two lower at most. I don’t think I’ve gotten below 46.

I haven’t really worked at it, and much lower is clearly doable. Here’s a guy who gets down to low 30s. Apparently one or two guys out there do claim 7.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/01/trav ... 53712.html

https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/h ... bpm.19878/
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#32

Postby cathB » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:12 pm

Do you mind if I state the obvious? Moonlightress and JimmyH. I do find your discussions riveting. The unconscious mind be it all "Brain" controls your physical body. I thought that was a given. So when you are too hot it will reveal it to your conscious brain that has been pleasantly distracted to go into a trance state listening to James .... whatever?
The Imagination always wins. that is why when "One" is hypnotised even if they are reluctant to do that suggestion they find themselves doing it anyway. This why it is important to speak positively to "oneself" and not say negative comments cause the Subconscious just goes.... "Ok so you think ..... or you want to be ....." etc.
But you are professionals you know this anyway. Sorry to burst your bubble. ;) :D
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#33

Postby jimmyh » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:30 pm

So there I lie, with half my brain going "TOO HOT, TOO HOT!" and the other half going "Yeah, I hear you, but I'm busy here, you'll have to sort it out yourself".

The latter wins; I'm really too deep to care. So I guess I've found out what happens if I don't do anything. It's more uncomfortable (actually it's VERY uncomfortable) and it takes much longer to cool down. But I can turn my attention away from it, because the tape and the experience are more interesting. It must be possible to just stay asleep.


Neat.

So it’s endurable, and you don’t die or burst into flames or anything totally outrageous like that. Yet it is super uncomfortable.

Now — either the next time it happens, or “going back” so to speak — can you find the difference between the “this is what my body temperature is”/”this is what I’d expect a thermometer to say” feeling, the “this is how far over my desired body temperature” signal, and the “this is how much I care about being away from my ideal body temperature” signal?
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#34

Postby moonlightress » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:50 pm

jimmyh wrote:Now — either the next time it happens, or “going back” so to speak — can you find the difference between the “this is what my body temperature is”/”this is what I’d expect a thermometer to say” feeling, the “this is how far over my desired body temperature” signal, and the “this is how much I care about being away from my ideal body temperature” signal?

Struggling to work out what you asking; could you reformulate this please?
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#35

Postby jimmyh » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:55 pm

When I first get a fever, I can tell that my body is at a normal temperature despite feeling "cold". They're separate senses. Later, as my body heats up, I can tell that I'm actually running hot, even though I don't feel any need to cool off. When the fever breaks it swings back in the other direction, and now I can tell that the change wasn't in body temperature but in my bodies set point.

When you put yourself in that mental space (either by remembering/imagining or by waiting for it to happen again), can you get a sense of what I'm talking about, and distinguish between these two things?

EDIT: On second thought, the second part is worth keeping too:

I sometimes have times when my body is hot and sweating, but it actually feels quite nice. Sometimes times I can tell I'm cold and even shivering but it doesn't really bother me too much. Other times a similar degree of hot/cold feels quite aversive, and like I need to do something about it. In these cases, the difference isn't the difference between my body temperature and my set point, it's how strongly I care to do anything about it. Can you relate to this too?
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#36

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:14 pm

cathB wrote:But you are professionals you know this anyway.


No one is a professional in this forum. Not that it matters. Whatever you or anyone else chooses to contribute to the discussion can be evaluated on its own merit. Your opinions have equal standing.
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#37

Postby jimmyh » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:21 pm

No one is a professional in this forum


Empirically false :p
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#38

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:31 pm

jimmyh wrote:
No one is a professional in this forum


Empirically false :p


Agreed. But, I give CathB credit to understand this is a public forum, not an exercise in propositional logic.
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#39

Postby jimmyh » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:42 pm

Agreed. But, I give CathB credit to understand this is a public forum, not an exercise in propositional logic.


Alright, so long as you're upfront about the fact that you are willing to deliberately state known falsehoods because you don't understand the importance of logic as applied to public forums.

Though this definitely means your opinion is a lot less valid than anyone else's.
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#40

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:49 pm

jimmyh wrote:Though this definitely means your opinion is a lot less valid than anyone else's.


Empirically false.
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#41

Postby jimmyh » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:50 pm

[citation needed]
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#42

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:09 am

What is fun...since we are into having fun lately...is how nicely this thread had been developing. But, moonlightress decided she wanted to go down the road of personal attacks again. Guess those 200+ hypnosis sessions have not been able to solve the “be a better person” goal that moonlightress stated she was after. Talk about empirical evidence, lol.
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#43

Postby moonlightress » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:13 pm

jimmyh wrote:When I first get a fever, I can tell that my body is at a normal temperature despite feeling "cold". They're separate senses. Later, as my body heats up, I can tell that I'm actually running hot, even though I don't feel any need to cool off. When the fever breaks it swings back in the other direction, and now I can tell that the change wasn't in body temperature but in my bodies set point.

When you put yourself in that mental space (either by remembering/imagining or by waiting for it to happen again), can you get a sense of what I'm talking about, and distinguish between these two things?


No, although I'd love to. You have a greater awareness of sensations in your body and you can distinguish and interpret them far better than I. :P I appreciate your trying to give me an example, but a fever is not like a hot flush; once it's passed there isn't a swinging in the opposite direction, so you can tell what the change was. It's up to "too hot", then back to normal. I'm sorry if I'm being dense here, but I still don't get it; I can't distinguish the difference.

I sometimes have times when my body is hot and sweating, but it actually feels quite nice. Sometimes times I can tell I'm cold and even shivering but it doesn't really bother me too much. Other times a similar degree of hot/cold feels quite aversive, and like I need to do something about it. In these cases, the difference isn't the difference between my body temperature and my set point, it's how strongly I care to do anything about it. Can you relate to this too?


Now this I can relate to, yes. Both ways. I can sit and shiver and just not be bothered to get up and get a jersey, or feel just a little cold and immediately want to put on a jersey. If I'm really engaged with something and a hot flush comes, I can sometimes just think, "oh whatever" and ignore it, and sometimes be bothered enough by it to throw off clothing/duvets.

jimmyh wrote:
The thing is though, that strong hot flushes do go very rapidly from "totally fine" to "OMG, I'm on fire" and I am asleep when this transition happens, so it makes sense to me that I only wake up when, and because, it's WAY TOO HOT. That’s not odd.


The *perception* changes rapidly. Yes, you’re used to that. However, doesn’t it seem odd that your body temperature would be stable for hours and then all of a sudden rapidly spike up to legitimately unacceptable temperatures? I mean, maybe it’s real, but it at least sounds strange enough that I’d be curious if it’s really happening.


Alright, I see what you mean. Yes, it’s the perception that changes rapidly, not spikes to legitimately unacceptable temps.
I was suggesting that maybe your temperature was climbing *slowly*, and that you just didn’t notice it until it was over the line. If this is the case, then maybe the solution is to notice sooner.

Are you saying, “set the intention to notice sooner” before I go to sleep?

If you’re happy you’re happy, and that’s great. I just want to make sure it’s clear that if you were to decide you wanted *less* hot flashes, this path continues further.

Just don’t go telling people that talking to me on the forum only got rid of *some* of your hot flashes, without mentioning that you chose to keep the rest :p

Anyone who knows you wouldn’t believe me and besides, What Do You Care What Other People Think? :P

Chose to keep the rest? Maybe. They just don’t capture my attention as much. I wake up in the night sometimes, but it’s a chicken and egg situation as to what caused what. I hear you that this needn’t be the end of the road, but somehow it just doesn’t seem very important anymore. I’ve come a long way and I’m very happy with that. Thanks for all the help. :)

(Complete non sequitur: do you lucid dream?

I used to, until I lost interest. It’s kinda a trip. Especially the wake induced lucid dream, which has to have been the biggest mind **** I’ve ever experienced.

I found that lucid dreams were fairly simple to induce, actually. Direct suggestion was most often enough, which has some interesting implications.

The way you just implement direct suggestion is pretty unusual, though. Just “intending to do stuff” doesn’t just make it happen for me. Maybe my intention is not firm enough?

What happens if you just try direct suggestion?


I promptly forgot about this suggestion after I’d read it; now I’m going to try it. But speaking of wake induced lucid dreams, I’ve been wondering if they have any mechanism in common with “waking” trance, like I experienced in our previous thread? I had another such waking trance just a few days back and it was fascinating to experience it again. I was very focused, in a distinctly altered state of mind, was describing how it felt, from inside it, with a theory of how I had got there, even, and was told I was animated, lucid and making sense. I know I was in trance. Or are they two entirely different things? I’m wildly speculating. I can’t compare since I’ve never lucid-dreamt. And to judge by what you said in the “freaked out” thread, you may not have experienced this kind of trance, or have you?
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#44

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:55 am

moonlightress wrote:Interesting. Two nights in a row now....They are in ultradepth, so by the time I'm well in, I can't/don't want to move a single muscle. Totally limp. Then along comes TOO HOT....

So there I lie, with half my brain going "TOO HOT, TOO HOT!" and the other half going "Yeah, I hear you, but I'm busy here, you'll have to sort it out yourself".

The latter wins; I'm really too deep to care. So I guess I've found out what happens if I don't do anything. It's more uncomfortable (actually it's VERY uncomfortable) and it takes much longer to cool down. But I can turn my attention away from it, because the tape and the experience are more interesting.


For anyone tracking the story across multiple threads, this is a great case study in the results you can get from years of dedicated practice of hypnosis. To what extent can hypnosis help regulate your body temperature?

You too, after hundreds if not thousands of sessions, can achieve the amazing ability to kinda, sort of, deal with hot flashes, more or less. You too, will be able to turn your attention away from the hot flash...sort of.

Good? Bad? You can decide.

Personally, I’m neutral on the subject. To each their own. If you want to spend years of effort learning and practicing the art of hypnosis, this is a great case study in the results you can expect to achieve. For some that is wonderful and for others not so much. Different strokes for different folks.
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