Why should the world not unite? Your arguments

#30

Postby Candid » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:20 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:99.9% of species that ever lived are extinct.


Yes. Every species goes extinct. That includes ours, and I want to point out that I don't see that as a bad thing.

But we don't intentionally eradicate.


Yes, we do. Lots of people in Australia are working on ways to eradicate the cane toad Bufo marinus, of which 120 were introduced from South America and immediately began threatening the survival of many other species.

When we replace natural growth with crops, which we then cover with pesticides, we are intentionally eradicating plants and insects while unintentionally eradicating the wildlife that survived on them. These things have a ripple effect. Knock out a keystone species and you knock out a whole ecosystem. The world progressively becomes homogenised. That's not a potential future, it's already happening.

When one day nature takes its course and mosquitoes, birds, rats, or some other species begin the eradication of humanity they will have no moral qualms about their conquest.


I believe we'll do it ourselves. Not deliberately, but through remaining oblivious to the very obvious dangers of overpopulation. This isn't future shock. People in overpopulated countries are starving to death now.

That nature has not yet taken its course is also of no concern.


Nature has always taken its course, Richard, and will continue to do so -- including human nature. I've seen climate change during my brief time on this planet. The increasing desertification of Africa and Australia can't be reversed. Heck, even England's green and pleasant land turns brown every summer now. Damming and redirecting water is folly indeed. Proposing that everyone in desert countries can migrate to the nearest reliable water source is fantasy without imagination.

Every generation has the fear-mongering doomsayers calling for radical change.


I think most of what you call fear-mongering doomsayers are merely pointing out what's happening. People such as my cousin who's about to become a grandfather have very strong biological reasons for not wanting to see it.
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#31

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:22 pm

Candid wrote:Nature has always taken its course, Richard, and will continue to do so -- including human nature. I've seen climate change during my brief time on this planet.


We have all seen climate change. So what? Given human nature is a part of and not apart from nature means that it is what it is.

This whole moral angst about our own role in nature is not a negative in my opinion. We are unique in our capacity to self-flagellate, bemoaning our own existence, treating ourselves as inherently malevolent or evil.

It is the above paragraph that drives us, unlike any other species, to target some frogs to save ecosystems. The frogs don't care. The ecosystem doesn't care. They don't experience an existential crisis, but we do. Hurrah for us!

Worst-case scenario we plunder the earth, eradicating every species other than extremophiles. We strip the earth bare to the bone as we eventually feed on an odd mixture of soilent green.

In this dystopian future (based on our moral judgments of how the earth should be) are we evil, malevolent, ignorant creatures?

In my opinion, the answer is firmly no. We are not bad, evil, or otherwise going down some unfathomable path because humanity is dumb enough to act human. So what if we are ignorant? So what if we have the capacity to kill ourselves and every living thing on the planet off? These still don't mean much to me.

This isn't negative. It is actually positive. We have the capacity to contemplate the above, to experience the moral pain and this guides us to at least make some effort to transform the cosmos into what we would like to see. Again, hurrah for us!

I get tired of all the saber-rattling and bemoaning of how awful we are as a species. But, that's our nature, right? After all, somebody has to be the purveyor of moral righteousness and tell others how all the species of the earth should come together, hold hands, and sing "we are the world".

Note, I'm not saying you Candid. Not at all. I just take this as an interesting discussion. I'm talking about those that use it as a way to gain or maintain political power. Poor Greta Thunberg.

Proposing that everyone in desert countries can migrate to the nearest reliable water source is fantasy without imagination.


I never said that they could. I clearly said, "to the extent they can".

Migrating to a reliable water source is in no way fantasy. That is what every species has done since earth began supporting life 3.5 billion years ago. Suddenly, around 7,000 to 10,000 years ago one species out of billions of species developed ways to transport water to remote areas.

To this day wildlife migrates to water, to the extent they can. And they die when there is a drought. Every year rivers rise and recede, pools form and creatures die as those pools dry up.

I'm not suggesting that everyone migrates or can instantly migrate successfully to water sources. Some people, the same as has occurred for all of humanity, will die when they are unable to migrate.

I agree, that when, how, and under what conditions people migrate is lacking in imagination. We should be better equipped to handle migration.
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#32

Postby WhoDat1017 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:26 am

I'm not really sure if it would be possible for the whole world to unite. Their will always be an opposition. Some aren't able to put aside their egos for the greater good. But that's just my opinion. I know the headline said "Why should the world not unite?" I was just looking at it from a different angle.
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#33

Postby Beforenowtocome » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:04 am

As you can clearly see from the responses of others. Unity is a joke. Can't even get through a discussion without hating on each other. This is the world...HATE
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#34

Postby Candid » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:41 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:So what if we have the capacity to kill ourselves and every living thing on the planet off? These still don't mean much to me.


Nor to me. I'm an observer, watching it unfold. Interesting times. I haven't said humanity is evil. In my experience rotten apples are a minority.

Beforenowtocome wrote:As you can clearly see from the responses of others. Unity is a joke. Can't even get through a discussion without hating on each other. This is the world...HATE


If you see hate in the discussion here, there's a mirror blocking your view. All we see is reflections of ourselves.
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#35

Postby Beforenowtocome » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:21 pm

If a reflection of yourself is the only action YOU see. I am afraid our planet is doomed. That is the underlying problem that this world has...they only see themselves, not others. Stop the hate
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#36

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:56 pm

Beforenowtocome wrote: I am afraid our planet is doomed.


Why are you afraid that the planet is doomed?

I don’t mean what will cause the planet to be doomed. I mean why do you fear a doomed planet? What makes the earth so special? What makes our species, out of the billions of others, such a privileged species?

Candid and I have differences of opinions. We have different perspectives or ways of looking at the world. Not just in this thread but others as well.

Is a difference of opinion what you consider hate?

The reason I ask is that mantra seems to be gaining popularity in many circles. Either agree with me or you are spreading hate.

This thread doesn’t consist of anything hateful. But, I would be curious to know specifically where you see hate.
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#37

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:13 pm

Candid wrote:I'm an observer, watching it unfold. Interesting times. I haven't said humanity is evil. In my experience rotten apples are a minority.


I don’t see you as a strict observer. You have opinions of how the world should be. You have an ideal in your mind that doesn’t include extinction of other species, the browning of grass, and the birth of more humans.

I too have a vision in my mind that I prefer over others. The vision I prefer is a pristine planet, clean, crisp air, refreshing water, all the species interacting in some perfectly balanced circle of life. Actually, in my ideal the earth has maybe a few hundred thousand humans, lol.

I think where we both are observers is in separating our ideals from the actions we take. Neither you or I are claiming moral superiority or authority, claiming our vision of the ideal must become reality. We are not trying to claim power in order to force upon others our ideals.
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#38

Postby Beforenowtocome » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:13 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Why are you afraid that the planet is doomed?

I don’t mean what will cause the planet to be doomed. I mean why do you fear a doomed planet? What makes the earth so special? What makes our species, out of the billions of others, such a privileged species?


Undoubtedly, the planet will be extinct at some point. So why keep pushing buttons. My argument is that with the fuel of aggression(regardless if you believe or not) will force planetary disasters.

I fear a doomed planet because I and others reside on it.

The earth is special because YOU and others have the opportunity of destroying it or making it great. What's your choice?

The reason I believe we are privileged is because we can only refer to US as a species. We know of no others. So that is what makes us unique and privileged(so far). So should we care for those we know of, or should we ONLY care about that we know nothing of?
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#39

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:39 pm

Beforenowtocome wrote:I fear a doomed planet because I and others reside on it.


By doom you mean that our species will be driven to extinction by our own actions in your lifetime or that of the next generation or two?

What is your worst case scenario? Is it truly extinction of all of humanity or is it a dystopian future where only a few thousand humans are living in underground bunkers and being forced to survive on the scraps and remains of humanity?

I’m trying to get a feel for the scope and timescale of extinction in your mind.
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#40

Postby Beforenowtocome » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:45 pm

Richard@decisionSkills wrote:Candid and I have differences of opinions. We have different perspectives or ways of looking at the world. Not just in this thread but others as well.

Is a difference of opinion what you consider hate?

The reason I ask is that mantra seems to be gaining popularity in many circles. Either agree with me or you are spreading hate.

This thread doesn’t consist of anything hateful. But, I would be curious to know specifically where you see hate.


It is exactly about the different perspectives that create a spark of hatred or angst. Do we all live on the same rock or is somehow other people living on some distant world.

How can one person see that the world is falling apart and the other seeing it as growing to greatness.

From my perspective on things is that 50% of the planet CARE about all things, the other 50% CARE about themselves.

That alone is what causes the confusion of a discussion or an argument.
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#41

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:13 pm

Beforenowtocome wrote: From my perspective on things is that 50% of the planet CARE about all things, the other 50% CARE about themselves.


First, I disagree with the above premise. But, let’s accept your premise as truth. So what? What does it matter if 50% only care about themselves? Why does it matter?

This takes me to my second point, that your answer doesn’t respond to my question regarding how you see “doom” in the future come to pass. The 50/50 perspective is just a distraction that adds little to the discussion.

Is it massive self created extinction that happens in your lifetime or the next one or two generations? Or does humanity survive albeit in a dystopian, dark future?
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#42

Postby Beforenowtocome » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:16 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:I’m trying to get a feel for the scope and timescale of extinction in your mind.


I'm sorry, I don't believe I mentioned extinction just doom. I don't actually believe in extinction just evolution.

And...

Yes! It is exactly going to be a dystopian future. If, we don't make a stand for a principle we all believe in, Life! While history does repeat, so does the cycle of life. Why learn from anything?

Why? On your own place, are you in fear? I get it though, no fear right? What is there to fear but just the fear itself(the unknowing). We all get it. Then why do you lock your doors at night? The truth of the matter is, why the hell do we need to live in fear. I get it, some of us have an arsenal and say that they have no fear. Ha! Then why the weapon, come on. So is it disaster we comfort or is it growth?

I'm literally listening to just enough of the conversations and have to choose sides. weird, right?

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:What is your worst case scenario?


Continuing the way we are!
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#43

Postby Beforenowtocome » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:35 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:So what? What does it matter if 50% only care about themselves? Why does it matter?


Unfortunately, that is why we are doomed. The lack in care is driving the planet back to the age of dawn. If the world enjoys stupidity and barbarianism, then hell yeah! let's bring back the dumber.

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:This takes me to my second point, that your answer doesn’t respond to my question regarding how you see “doom” in the future come to pass. The 50/50 perspective is just a distraction that adds little to the discussion.


I apologize for my timeliness on my responses. I must admit, I do more that type.

Doom was just a reference, on a path that the people want to head into.
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#44

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:49 pm

Beforenowtocome wrote: The lack in care is driving the planet back to the age of dawn.


You must live in a region of the world much different than my own experiences.

I’ve lived in the USA, Germany, Holland, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, India, and China. I’ve visited over 30 countries. In every single place people seem to care about others. I have not met many people that clearly only cared about their own welfare.

Most people I have met have family, friends, neighbors, and colleagues. My observations are that the vast majority of people display kindness to others.

Where you live 50% of people don’t give birthday gifts unless for selfish reasons? Where you live 50% of people do not make any effort to help family and friends? You are telling me that where you live 50% of people live alone, sucking up welfare benefits from everyone else and selfishly contributing nothing in return?

If you live in such a world I suggest you are already in a dystopian state. Maybe you should move to any of the places I listed where the vast, vast majority of people have friends and family that they help and care about.
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