freaked out

#15

Postby jimmyh » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:56 am

(of whom i am quite familiar having studied advance physics myself and also having read the book you mentioned)

Oh cool. I'm a physics guy too.

it seems that once they accepted the suggestion they then had no control over themselves and were unable to resist (themselves?). why does simply accepting a suggestion cause them to lose the ability to function and reason? does this mean that they were basically lying to themselves about not being able to talk or walk straight back to their seat?


Good question.

The answer is that most people are not very aware of how their own brains work, and therefore don't know *how* to undo things like this.

I'll give you an example. A friend of mine hurt (probably broke) her finger the other day. I had taught her that she could control swelling by just "deciding" for it to not swell, and she had been quite successful with that. This time though, she started to doubt herself for silly reasons and her finger swelled up pretty good. She came to me saying "well, this injury *does* seem to be worse than the last four injuries where there was not a bit of swelling, but it also seems a bit suspicious that it swelled up the one time I started to doubt myself".

Basically, what happened is that she tried to explain to someone her ability to make things not swell, and the fact that he didn't immediately believe her worked as a hypnotic suggestion toward the idea that "you can't do that!" which she did not know how to resist.

She had tried to resist by reminding herself "yeah, so it sounds stupid to say that I can control the swelling, but it sounded equally stupid all those times before so it'll work here too", but the problem is that she didn't actually believe it. If you asked her, she'd say "of course I believe it, it worked before!", but when I specifically told her to forget about her justifications and report back what her gut actually told her was going to happen, it was that doubt of "you can't control that". When that is the thing your brain is focusing on, that's the thing you're actively "believing" to be true. She *tried* to believe what she thought was the right thing to believe, but she didn't know how to address the doubts so she didn't succeed. And because she didn't succeed in believing she could, she couldn't succeed in intending to keep the thing from swelling. If she had been confident in the fact that "this guy not believing me means nothing", then that suggestion never would have taken hold. If she had known to say "okay, so this injury *is* worse than the last four, and I might not be able to completely prevent swelling", then the doubt would have immediately gotten out of her way. It didn't because she didn't.

In Feynman's case, he had let himself be lead into feeling a compulsion to do what the hypnotist said he would do, and then did not know how to get rid of this compulsion, and was not sufficiently stubborn to keep fighting it over the principle of the matter. If he had known how to get rid of the compulsion or else refused to accept the suggestions in the first place, things would have played out differently.

Another example might be "quitting smoking". People often want to quit smoking, but don't know how to actually stop themselves from wanting to smoke and so they end up acting on that desire.


i guess i don't get the idea that someone is able to do/not do something because they "chose"? to accept a suggestion as it seems then that they were not in fact actually trying at all.


Trying to do what? I'm not sure I'm following. I'll take a guess though, and see if I can get at the underlying confusion.

Say I were to ask if you would be okay with typing exactly what I tell you to type, just as an experiment. Suppose you were to say "sure".

What you would actually be agreeing to (and therefore setting the intention to do) is something like "When Jimmy says to type something, I'll read it and type it -- provided that there's no good reason not to". If a good reason not to comes up, you might say "Aha! Now I get why this isn't an easy thing to agree to".

But what if instead, I told you that you *will* type everything I told you to type, and you believed this to be actual fact. It would feel quite different in that case, no?

It's a strange thing to imagine, but if it happened you'd suddenly find yourself needing to un-believe it, and simply trying to push away compelling facts doesn't tend to work so well.




i guess i am just very curious as to what they would be experiencing and why they are actually not able to function in a manner which they know they can and have many times before.


Go find a 50 foot high cliff over deep water. Walk to the edge. Jump off.

If this is too difficult, jump off while peeing.

Both jumping and peeing are things you've done many times before. In these contexts, they become *much* more difficult. No one has trouble jumping off cliffs once they set their mind to it. What people struggle with is setting their mind to it.

would they not question what was happening and don't understand why once they "hand over control" they are unable to resist.


They can question. I guess I'm not following again.

would you be willing to expound on these as i don't really understand what you are saying here. what is a first couples group


I'm saying that the people who like to frame things misleadingly and those who are willing to "lie to children" are often the ones running the training courses that the people who "have no idea what hypnosis can do" or else "try to hold onto their delusions" attend and learn from.


and are you saying that hypnotherapists know that they are easily able to manipulate people under trance and that subjects are not under their own control at all times


It depends on the person. Many hypnotherapists genuinely aren't able to manipulate people. The more competent ones know they'd be able to.

as the articles that Richard posted stated but instead as i previous asked do not want this to be wildly know in order to protect their businesses?


It's not just "their business", but also their self perception and the way they're perceived by others. Hypnotism is seen as a weird and potentially creepy thing, so it'd be really nice if you could just tell people "oh no, it's not like *that*". Heck, my grandpa was a hypnotist and he quit because he didn't want to be seen as creepy by women. Imagine having to say "yes, I'm a hypnotist, and yes it can be used against people's will" when dating. It's *possible*, but it sure is a large hurdle that most people do not want to mess with and would not be able to successfully clear. The pressure to not believe things like that is considerable.

tricking people into what they don't want is another idea that i don't get and goes along with the question of how simply accepting a suggestion relinquishes control of one's thoughts & actions without their ability to take it back.


The "how simply accepting a suggestion relinquishes control" is definitely a weird one, but what's confusing about the "tricking people into what they don't want" part? It's like saying "here's the keys to my car" while not realizing that you gave someone the keys to your house as well, when you would not have trusted them with your house keys. Or like saying "hey, would you like this hamburger" and not telling them that it's laced with cyanide. If you agree on things without understanding the consequences, you can't know when the consequences aren't something you would have agreed to.


also, what exactly is erotic hypnosis -is this hypnotizing people to force them to unwillingly perform sexual acts? if so, it sounds like it would be quite illegal.

Erotic hypnosis is just hypnosis for erotic purposes. It's generally done between consenting adults, but bad actors get in the mix sometimes.

so on youtube there is an example of a short 2 minute video that i think Richard & jimmy would have very different takes on called:

"Street Hypnosis - Handshake Girl Take Off Clothes"
[...]

is this girl a shill/actor or was it that simple to get her to respond this way and remove all her logic & reason? either she is a great actor or she was truly embarrassed about how she was confused & manipulated into doing what she never would have done otherwise in a matter of seconds.



Okay, so the first thing I notice with this one is "Vince Lynch". I can't remember exactly what I've learned about this guy, but I know it's not good. I think "sleazy wannabe PUA type" or something, and that greatly raises my priors that this is heavily edited/selected/outright faked.

When I actually watch it, it looks like a shameless ripoff of Anthony Jacquin's stunt. If I remember correctly, Anthony's stunts there were more or less honest depictions of what happened. I would *guess* (just since it's so easy to do and makes things easier/more reliable) that this guy had probably already hypnotized her and just did a handshake reinduction. It's also overwhelmingly likely that this isn't the first person he approached, and that there's some selection bias going on here. Nothing jumps out at me as "obviously an actress", but that's still a possibility.

There are a couple things to note. For one, he gives the jacket back, and this isn't really much of a surprise to anyone. People are quite good at picking up on body language and other cues like this. The fact that she knows that he's unlikely to do any harm allows her to trust him enough to do things that might look bad for her, since even if during the moment she's not aware of it, she's not actually giving it to him for keeps. If he were to be alone doing this and with intent to actually keep the jacket, it would be much more difficult to pull off.

Secondly, a lot of the time hypnotic suggestions are less "complete" than they appear to be. When she says "thank you for lending it to me", notice how it sounds quite stilted? That's not her brain saying "this is actual reality", just "this is a thing I'm going along with", and it doesn't preclude the possibility that she's aware that what she's saying isn't actually the reality. Often people on stage will do things like "talk to their shoe" when told "your shoe is a phone", and then afterwards say "well, I *knew* it was my shoe, but it just felt so right to talk into it as if it were a phone".



i think that even the temporary loss of control as described by jimmy makes me question my whole world view when it comes to personal autonomy.


That makes it fun :)

Worldview changes usually aren't *comfortable*, but they can be exciting and leave you with more capabilities on the other side. In this case, you'd be looking for things like "improved control and meta-control in situations where your control might not have been as good as you'd thought" as well as "ability to lean on others and allow them to influence you when it is beneficial to do so".


this conversation has greatly helped to enlighten me on this subject but i guess i will never truly understand until i experience it myself -which according to jimmy's post may be very difficult in my case.


To clarify, I was saying that you'd be difficult *because* you don't seem to want it. If someone were to try and you weren't really into it, it would likely be very difficult for them. If you were to decide that you very much wanted to experience it, it might be scary. But if you were to become sure that this is what you wanted to do, and summon up the courage to step to the edge, there's no reason you couldn't take that jump the way anyone else could.
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#16

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:53 am

ahimsa42 wrote:this conversation has greatly helped to enlighten me on this subject but i guess i will never truly understand until i experience it myself -which according to jimmy's post may be very difficult in my case.


I don’t think you fear hypnosis. I think you fear the lack of control. You fear more that another person would tell you to do something objectionable, i.e. harmful or embarrassing.

The proof is in the degree to which you are willing to experiment with ‘self-hypnosis’.

A simple experiment:
Get a stop watch/cell phone timer app. Fill a bucket or sink with water and ice. In roughly 3 minutes the temperature should be 32F(0C). Put your hand in the water and record the time until it is too uncomfortable. Record your time.

Wait one week.

Repeat the experiment, but this time, before you place your hand in the water take some time to do a bit of ‘self-hypnosis’. All this means is suggesting to yourself any variation of the cold water being harmless, relax, take a few breaths, focus, relax and then put your hand in the ice water.

You are in control the entire time. It is you hypnotizing you, which basically boils down to you suggesting to yourself that any discomfort associated with the ice water is not harmful and then accepting that suggestion.

You don’t need to actually conduct the experiment. My question, what is there to fear in the above?

P.S. variations of this experiment have been conducted multiple times.
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#17

Postby ahimsa42 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:05 am

jimmyh wrote:
Oh cool. I'm a physics guy too.


that explains the Feynman example, lol. actually, in thinking back, i am sure that it was first reading this in the book that freaked me out in regards to hypnosis. since it was the 80's and there was no internet, i was not able to pursue it any further but obviously it has been in my mind causing anxiety since then.


Good question.

The answer is that most people are not very aware of how their own brains work, and therefore don't know *how* to undo things like this.

In Feynman's case, he had let himself be lead into feeling a compulsion to do what the hypnotist said he would do, and then did not know how to get rid of this compulsion, and was not sufficiently stubborn to keep fighting it over the principle of the matter. If he had known how to get rid of the compulsion or else refused to accept the suggestions in the first place, things would have played out differently.

Another example might be "quitting smoking". People often want to quit smoking, but don't know how to actually stop themselves from wanting to smoke and so they end up acting on that desire.

Trying to do what? I'm not sure I'm following. I'll take a guess though, and see if I can get at the underlying confusion.

Say I were to ask if you would be okay with typing exactly what I tell you to type, just as an experiment. Suppose you were to say "sure".

What you would actually be agreeing to (and therefore setting the intention to do) is something like "When Jimmy says to type something, I'll read it and type it -- provided that there's no good reason not to". If a good reason not to comes up, you might say "Aha! Now I get why this isn't an easy thing to agree to".

But what if instead, I told you that you *will* type everything I told you to type, and you believed this to be actual fact. It would feel quite different in that case, no?

It's a strange thing to imagine, but if it happened you'd suddenly find yourself needing to un-believe it, and simply trying to push away compelling facts doesn't tend to work so well.


so to me in Feynman's case it sounds like a lack of willpower since he had already decided that he was not going to comply but did so anyway. from what you said he was perfectly capable of just walking back to his seat but chose not to challenge/fight the compulsion not to do so. as far as they typing example, my first reaction would be to think of a reason why i should do what you asked and since i would not be able to do so, i would just refuse. it is the idea that someone could be told something which goes against their logic and reason and believe it (you "will" type everything i told you to type") that i cannot connect with as it seems that someone would need to be gullible enough not to even question such things to buy into them so completely.



Go find a 50 foot high cliff over deep water. Walk to the edge. Jump off.

If this is too difficult, jump off while peeing.

Both jumping and peeing are things you've done many times before. In these contexts, they become *much* more difficult. No one has trouble jumping off cliffs once they set their mind to it. What people struggle with is setting their mind to it.


i guess i understand but both these acts have obvious physical repercussions. remembering your name is something which should require no effort or concentration what so ever despite the context and i know i have never done so myself in my many decades on this planet. that is why i see it as a case of people being so easily confused.

They can question. I guess I'm not following again.


so they agree to experience something and then when they discover that it is not what they thought (in the case of your girlfriend not being able to talk) why cannot they just refuse to comply once they discover they don't actually want to do what they agreed to? obviously your girl friend could talk if she wanted to despite your fingers snapping so why didn't she just say to herself "this is silly and i wish to speak so i am going to do so" instead of still clinging to the belief that she could not because she accepted your suggestion? in other words, where is her critical thinking when she has been hypnotized? is this just another case of lack of will power to change her mind once she accepted?


The "how simply accepting a suggestion relinquishes control" is definitely a weird one, but what's confusing about the "tricking people into what they don't want" part? It's like saying "here's the keys to my car" while not realizing that you gave someone the keys to your house as well, when you would not have trusted them with your house keys. Or like saying "hey, would you like this hamburger" and not telling them that it's laced with cyanide. If you agree on things without understanding the consequences, you can't know when the consequences aren't something you would have agreed to..


but again once i realized that i handed you my house keys by mistake i would immediately ask for them back. why is this not possible for people who have been tricked into something which they did not realize when it comes to hypnosis? it seems that someone who was more in control of their own mind would easily be able to do so.


Okay, so the first thing I notice with this one is "Vince Lynch". I can't remember exactly what I've learned about this guy, but I know it's not good. I think "sleazy wannabe PUA type" or something, and that greatly raises my priors that this is heavily edited/selected/outright faked.

When I actually watch it, it looks like a shameless ripoff of Anthony Jacquin's stunt. If I remember correctly, Anthony's stunts there were more or less honest depictions of what happened. I would *guess* (just since it's so easy to do and makes things easier/more reliable) that this guy had probably already hypnotized her and just did a handshake reinduction. It's also overwhelmingly likely that this isn't the first person he approached, and that there's some selection bias going on here. Nothing jumps out at me as "obviously an actress", but that's still a possibility.

There are a couple things to note. For one, he gives the jacket back, and this isn't really much of a surprise to anyone. People are quite good at picking up on body language and other cues like this. The fact that she knows that he's unlikely to do any harm allows her to trust him enough to do things that might look bad for her, since even if during the moment she's not aware of it, she's not actually giving it to him for keeps. If he were to be alone doing this and with intent to actually keep the jacket, it would be much more difficult to pull off.

Secondly, a lot of the time hypnotic suggestions are less "complete" than they appear to be. When she says "thank you for lending it to me", notice how it sounds quite stilted? That's not her brain saying "this is actual reality", just "this is a thing I'm going along with", and it doesn't preclude the possibility that she's aware that what she's saying isn't actually the reality. Often people on stage will do things like "talk to their shoe" when told "your shoe is a phone", and then afterwards say "well, I *knew* it was my shoe, but it just felt so right to talk into it as if it were a phone".


the video you shared is even more scary to me. this is what most people think of when they hear hypnosis. even if they agreed to participate and knew it was not real and a TV show, i don't understand why anyone would comply. the same with the girl giving her coat. i would never trust someone i didn't know enough to play along like that and my first thought would be that i am going to resist and do the exact opposite of what you say. as i said, i would feel extremely embarrassed to allow myself to lose control so easily and willingly. if it were me i would have agreed to play along in words but then tried to resist as much as possible to prove that i could not be so easily confused & controlled. as far as the shoe example, if they knew it was a shoe they were talking into and even it was for a show, where was the question "why am i doing this, this is silly and i will not comply with it?"

That makes it fun :)

Worldview changes usually aren't *comfortable*, but they can be exciting and leave you with more capabilities on the other side. In this case, you'd be looking for things like "improved control and meta-control in situations where your control might not have been as good as you'd thought" as well as "ability to lean on others and allow them to influence you when it is beneficial to do so".


i don't know-losing control in any way does not sound at all fun or exciting to me. i would consider having MORE control of my own mind and not being influenced by others to be the positive attribute. it seems very much like a weakness & flaw instead of a positive thing. the example of the video you shared made the subjects look like mindless robots unable to control their own actions and not like people who were getting anything beneficial from the experience.

To clarify, I was saying that you'd be difficult *because* you don't seem to want it. If someone were to try and you weren't really into it, it would likely be very difficult for them. If you were to decide that you very much wanted to experience it, it might be scary. But if you were to become sure that this is what you wanted to do, and summon up the courage to step to the edge, there's no reason you couldn't take that jump the way anyone else could.


i was planning on contacting a local hypnotist to try this but from what you said it may be a total waste of time & $. how would one find someone who is competent enough to do this? and if i did, would it be a detriment to go in wanting to experience it with the goal of resisting the suggestions and not complying?
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#18

Postby jimmyh » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:47 pm

I can respond to the rest later if necessary, but I think it really all comes down to this:

if it were me i would have agreed to play along in words but then tried to resist as much as possible to prove that i could not be so easily confused & controlled.

Who do you need to "prove" it to, and why?

Are you sure you would be "proving" what you already "know", or might it really be "testing" and "finding out"?

Why do you imagine Feynman volunteered and followed every instruction with the intent to fully experience hypnosis, and why do you imagine he didn't seem horribly ashamed when he succeeded at this beyond his expectations?
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#19

Postby ahimsa42 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:22 pm

jimmyh wrote:I can respond to the rest later if necessary,


yes, if you can finf the time, please do. i always look forward to your & Richard's insights.

if it were me i would have agreed to play along in words but then tried to resist as much as possible to prove that i could not be so easily confused & controlled.

Who do you need to "prove" it to, and why?


Are you sure you would be "proving" what you already "know", or might it really be "testing" and "finding out"?[/quote]

you are correct-testing & finding out would be a more accurate description. perhaps to prove to myself & the hypnotist that i cannot be so easily manipulated? that i am in control of my mind and actions and refuse to comply to suggestions which i find silly & illogical?

[/quote]Why do you imagine Feynman volunteered and followed every instruction with the intent to fully experience hypnosis, and why do you imagine he didn't seem horribly ashamed when he succeeded at this beyond his expectations?[/quote]

i really don't don't have any idea- perhaps as a type of an experiment? you are correct that from the last sentence that he wrote in the link you posted he did not seem to be at all disturbed by his lack of control an inability to resist. that is exactly what i cannot relate to personally when it comes to this subject. he seemed to have considered it a success while i would have considered following the suggestion a complete failure on my part.
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#20

Postby ahimsa42 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:35 pm

to me, being in control of my own faculties at all times is far more desirable than having an interesting experience and not being in control. i guess this is one of the big reasons i never drank alcohol or took drugs.
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#21

Postby ahimsa42 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:10 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:I don’t think you fear hypnosis. I think you fear the lack of control. You fear more that another person would tell you to do something objectionable, i.e. harmful or embarrassing.


you are 100% correct here Richard. to me, doing silly things which make no sense such as talking to your shoe or giving away your coat to a complete stranger is very embarrassing and indicates vulnerability and weakness, regardless of the context or circumstances. i can see the great benefits of therapeutic hypnosis and have no fear of it what so ever. it is the "entertainment" hypnosis which i cannot relate to at all. i know your stance is that this is mostly for show, heavily edited, performed by actors and not real but other answers i have received state that it is very real and that most people who have willingly given up their autonomy while in trance are unable to get it back until they are released.

The proof is in the degree to which you are willing to experiment with ‘self-hypnosis’.

A simple experiment:
Get a stop watch/cell phone timer app. Fill a bucket or sink with water and ice. In roughly 3 minutes the temperature should be 32F(0C). Put your hand in the water and record the time until it is too uncomfortable. Record your time.

Wait one week.

Repeat the experiment, but this time, before you place your hand in the water take some time to do a bit of ‘self-hypnosis’. All this means is suggesting to yourself any variation of the cold water being harmless, relax, take a few breaths, focus, relax and then put your hand in the ice water.

You are in control the entire time. It is you hypnotizing you, which basically boils down to you suggesting to yourself that any discomfort associated with the ice water is not harmful and then accepting that suggestion.

You don’t need to actually conduct the experiment. My question, what is there to fear in the above?

P.S. variations of this experiment have been conducted multiple times.


this is an interesting experiment and one which i may attempt sometime so thanks for posting it. i have heard some people say before that hypnosis is nothing but a form of guided mediation but others vehemently deny this and say that it is nothing like mediation.

the example of self hypnosis which you gave is more of a meditative state of which i have experienced myself many times before having routinely practiced mediation for years now. the issue is that i can totally relate to accepting my own suggestions in an attempt to improve but cannot fathom accepting someone else's suggestion when it is silly, illogical and does not correspond to reality (shoe phone, walking back to your seat, not being able to speak or count to 10).

i thought the video of the coat girl i posted was bad the video of Anthony Jacquin posted by jimmy is by far the worst i have seen and the subjects act so foolishly and confused (despite knowing that they are on a TV show) that i really pity them and it is very hard for me to watch them get taken advantage of.
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#22

Postby jimmyh » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:24 pm

you are correct-testing & finding out would be a more accurate description. perhaps to prove to myself & the hypnotist that i cannot be so easily manipulated? that i am in control of my mind and actions and refuse to comply to suggestions which i find silly & illogical?

And what happens if you find a hypnotist that succeeds in hypnotizing you to forget your name/etc? Would you know what to do with that information?
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#23

Postby ahimsa42 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:50 pm

good question. i would most certainly feel very foolish & ashamed if that were the case but not sure what i could do, if anything, with the information gained from such an experience.
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#24

Postby moonlightress » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:38 pm

ahimsa42 wrote:to me, being in control of my own faculties at all times is far more desirable than having an interesting experience and not being in control. i guess this is one of the big reasons i never drank alcohol or took drugs.


Hi ahimsa
I've been pondering whether or not to join in here, but since I'm someone who is curious enough to want to see what happens, when I set my autonomy aside and deliberately step into a hypnotist's frame, for the sake of having an interesting experience, I'll step in here, too and see what happens. :)

I got hypnotised for fun just a few weeks back - the guy wanted to practice his hypnotizing skills and I've been wanting to experience the name/number amnesia "party trick" for a while now, so we agreed we had a match of interests and did the thing. I laughed and laughed when I kept counting my 6 fingers because i knew full well, going into it, what it was all about - and yet the number 4 was just *not there*. I counted 1 - 2 - 3 - 5 - 6. It was the 24th and since I knew I had an appointment on the next day, the 25th, I concluded today must be the 23rd. I knew there was something strange about that, but since the number 4 didn't exist, that's all it could be. And I had to umm and errr and ummm to think of my name.

It was really a very cool and fun experience and we both got a good laugh from it. I realise this must seem absurd or maybe even shocking to you, so I'm weighing in here in case you want to ask anything of someone who would do such a thing quite willingly? It's ok if I seem weak-minded to you, but perhaps there is something I could answer or contribute?
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#25

Postby ahimsa42 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:54 pm

thanks for joining in and sharing your experience moonlightress. as i said previously, i would certainly not consider being so easily confused in any way cool or fun myself. this is the aspect of mind control that really upsets me-that something so fundamental could be so easily taken away from you by mumbling a few words.

this is no reflection on you since you obviously enjoyed it but if i were to experience the same thing myself i would be extremely disappointed and embarrassed for allowing my mind to be so easily manipulated. something that other people seem to consider as entertaining, i think of as a critical flaw and extreme weakness of the mind which could very easily lead to other more serious vulnerabilities.

i intend to try it myself at some point but will be certain to try and resist any suggestions to the utmost in order to retain my awareness of reality. as jimmy said, i am not sure what my reaction would be if i fail but i don't think it would be a positive one.
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#26

Postby cathB » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:19 pm

thanks for joining in and sharing your experience moonlightress. as i said previously, i would certainly not consider being so easily confused in any way cool or fun myself. this is the aspect of mind control that really upsets me-that something so fundamental could be so easily taken away from you by mumbling a few words.
this is no reflection on you since you obviously enjoyed it but if i were to experience the same thing myself i would be extremely disappointed and embarrassed for allowing my mind to be so easily manipulated.


Hi, Me again just butting in here.
I have to disagree with you Ahimsa42.
On the contrary... it takes imagination, concentration and the ability to allow these phenomena to happen. The hypnotist just aids what is already in place. intelligence is what is needed for a good subject. Well this is what I've been told. "Allowing" something to happen is not weakness. And nothing is taken away from you. rather it is replaced and it's temporary.

I myself haven't experienced amnesisa of sorts but always thought it would be interesting to see if I were able to generate/manifest such phenomena. "In myself" You miss the point; Hypnotists just aid what is already there. they are guides as it were.

Hope this helps any questions please ask. :)
CB
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#27

Postby ahimsa42 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:54 pm

Hi, Me again just butting in here.


please don't feel you or anyone else is butting in at all cathB as i very much welcome any comments or insights. this is the reason i posted this thread in the first place to try and get a better understanding of what i consider to be a very fascinating but also quite disturbing phenomena.

I have to disagree with you Ahimsa42.
On the contrary... it takes imagination, concentration and the ability to allow these phenomena to happen. The hypnotist just aids what is already in place. intelligence is what is needed for a good subject. Well this is what I've been told. "Allowing" something to happen is not weakness. And nothing is taken away from you. rather it is replaced and it's temporary.

I myself haven't experienced amnesisa of sorts but always thought it would be interesting to see if I were able to generate/manifest such phenomena. "In myself" You miss the point; Hypnotists just aid what is already there. they are guides as it were.

Hope this helps any questions please ask. :)
CB


i have heard this said many before times and just like the mantra of subjects being aware and in control at all times, unless i am greatly misunderstanding things it does not coincide with the evidence i have seen. in any other context not being able to perform simple acts and being able to be easily influenced to not be able to function is a clear sign of lack of intelligence and weakness so why is this not the case here?

the only thing i could accept (but most definitely not relate to) is that perhaps because the subject agrees to be put into such a state they are willingly tricking themselves into forgetting their name or how to count. perhaps moontress or someone else who has experienced it can comment on this. the question is then, what is the difference between agreeing to play along and being forced and unable to resist doing so?

if someone goes into it saying to themselves "no matter what happens i am going to remember my name & be able to count" but they are unable to do so, i don't see how this is not an unwilling form of mind control. if, however, they tell themselves i am going to follow instructions and play along to see how the experience is, and they willingly allow it to happen, this would be a subtle but very important difference imo.

just as i cannot see why people would want to get drunk and act silly, i can't see why anyone would find it entertaining to be put into an incapacitated state where they cannot think or reason for themselves.
ahimsa42
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#28

Postby cathB » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:54 am

the only thing i could accept (but most definitely not relate to) is that perhaps because the subject agrees to be put into such a state they are willingly tricking themselves into forgetting their name or how to count. perhaps moontress or someone else who has experienced it can comment on this. the question is then, what is the difference between agreeing to play along and being forced and unable to resist doing so?


I guess it comes back to my original point when I first chipped in this discussion. The unconscious mind...... People whom are not hypnotists and don't know anything much or just know what they have "Seen in movies" are not all that "Self aware" What happens when you are truly hypnotised in a Somnumbulisum State is you are operating on an unconscious level. you are not "Consciously" in control... Although you know what is happening people have reported that they just can't resist because the "Unconscious mind" the stronger part of you has in effectively taken over. and does what it is told. as it's sort of like the "child" within. My suggestion to you if I may is if you look up Anthony Gale stage hypnosis shows he really does explain this a lot better than I can. YouTube... he's one of the good guys ;) :D

CB
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#29

Postby ahimsa42 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:42 am

cathB wrote:
the only thing i could accept (but most definitely not relate to) is that perhaps because the subject agrees to be put into such a state they are willingly tricking themselves into forgetting their name or how to count. perhaps moontress or someone else who has experienced it can comment on this. the question is then, what is the difference between agreeing to play along and being forced and unable to resist doing so?


I guess it comes back to my original point when I first chipped in this discussion. The unconscious mind...... People whom are not hypnotists and don't know anything much or just know what they have "Seen in movies" are not all that "Self aware" What happens when you are truly hypnotised in a Somnumbulisum State is you are operating on an unconscious level. you are not "Consciously" in control... Although you know what is happening people have reported that they just can't resist because the "Unconscious mind" the stronger part of you has in effectively taken over. and does what it is told. as it's sort of like the "child" within. My suggestion to you if I may is if you look up Anthony Gale stage hypnosis shows he really does explain this a lot better than I can. YouTube... he's one of the good guys ;) :D

CB


herein lies the contradiction. if what you say is true and one's unconscious mind is under total control but willing to accept any suggestion, no matter how silly or unreasonable, then hypnosis IS indeed mind control. how then can therapists and even yourself, claim that people are aware and in control at all times when it is now claimed that this is not really the case? i guess you would say that since the unconscious mind is part of you then it really is you who is under control but since it is being directed by orders from another person, it is really the other person who is in control of your own mind & body and not really yourself.

it would seem then that the unconscious mind, for all of it's supposed strength, is a tremendously weak link and critically fatal flaw in that it is so easily subjugated into being manipulated by words, taking control and forced to act at the whims of someone else. the ability to be directed without being able to resist is the definition of mind control and the cause of my great anxiety when it comes to this topic.

i guess a better way of stating it would be that your unconscious mind is in total control but you are not in control of your unconscious mind so are therefore are being controlled indirectly through it. either way, it seems to be a very disturbing state of affairs imo and not at all an entertaining or positive one as it has been depicted to be.
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