i have determined after much research

Postby ahimsa42 » Tue May 21, 2019 11:04 am

that hypnosis is not a form of mind control. instead, i now understand that those who are susceptible to hypnosis are able to be brought into a state of temporary mental illness which is why i found it to be so disturbing in the first place. so called "trance logic" fits all the characteristics including delusion, lack of mental clarity and being disconnected from reality.

i still find it unthinkable that one could find being in such a state in any way entertaining or productive and that it is a condition of disability. the good news is that most people are not able to be brought to this state. a paper i was reading recently gave the following example. if one is hypnotized to completely forget the word "scissors" exists, only 12-17% of people will comply and not be able to say the word at all. 70% of people may stumble a little but will get the word out with a little effort. the remaining 12-17% will just say the word "scissors" with no hesitation. i would say that it is only the former 12-17% who have the disability and that the vast majority of people are safe from being forced into a state of mental confusion and lack of clarity.

i do find it somewhat amusing that being highly susceptible is couched as being an ability rather than the disorder that it is. in any other context being disconnected from reality is a major negative attribute so there is no reason to consider hypnosis as any different.
ahimsa42
Junior Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:36 pm
Likes Received: 1


#1

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Tue May 21, 2019 2:37 pm

The reason it is framed as an ability is because even with the highly susceptible it is 100% optional. In other words, 100% of the people had to opt in to the process of being hypnotized. It was not a matter of telling random subjects to forget the word scissors and 12-17% went into trance. Instead, 100% had to first willingly submit to being placed in a trance and only then were some people capable of forgetting the word scissors.

Another way to look at the situation is if I told you that the goal of an experiment was to see if you could achieve forgetting a negative memory. If the goal is to forget then success is the ability to forget. If then out of 100 people that said they would like to participate and achieve forgetting a bad memory, only 12-17 were capable, that is an ability. The other 80+ people failed.

And yet a 3rd way to frame the issue is the ability to roll your tongue. Go on, give it a try. Some people can roll their tongue and others cannot. Did you try? I couldn’t force you to participate, I couldn’t force you to roll your tongue against your will. If you tried and were successful then you have the ability, not the disability of being able to roll your tongue. Regardless, it is all how it is framed.

At some point in the future you might feel stressed or experience some anxiety. We all go through events in life where it would be nice to reduce anxiety, for example before giving a public speech. Hypnosis has shown to be an effective way to reduce anxiety, but as you have pointed out only 12-17% are truly able, while it is the other 80+% that have the inability or “disability” to reduce their anxiety via hypnosis.

The bottom line, while I’m no huge fan of hypnosis, what you have determined after much research is just confirmation of the personal, biased opinion that you have always held. The research just reinforced what you wish to believe, that being highly suggestible is the equivalent of a disability.
User avatar
Richard@DecisionSkills
MVP
MVP
 
Posts: 10433
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:25 am
Likes Received: 1074

#2

Postby ahimsa42 » Tue May 21, 2019 9:52 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:The reason it is framed as an ability is because even with the highly susceptible it is 100% optional. In other words, 100% of the people had to opt in to the process of being hypnotized. It was not a matter of telling random subjects to forget the word scissors and 12-17% went into trance. Instead, 100% had to first willingly submit to being placed in a trance and only then were some people capable of forgetting the word scissors.

Another way to look at the situation is if I told you that the goal of an experiment was to see if you could achieve forgetting a negative memory. If the goal is to forget then success is the ability to forget. If then out of 100 people that said they would like to participate and achieve forgetting a bad memory, only 12-17 were capable, that is an ability. The other 80+ people failed.

And yet a 3rd way to frame the issue is the ability to roll your tongue. Go on, give it a try. Some people can roll their tongue and others cannot. Did you try? I couldn’t force you to participate, I couldn’t force you to roll your tongue against your will. If you tried and were successful then you have the ability, not the disability of being able to roll your tongue. Regardless, it is all how it is framed.

At some point in the future you might feel stressed or experience some anxiety. We all go through events in life where it would be nice to reduce anxiety, for example before giving a public speech. Hypnosis has shown to be an effective way to reduce anxiety, but as you have pointed out only 12-17% are truly able, while it is the other 80+% that have the inability or “disability” to reduce their anxiety via hypnosis.

The bottom line, while I’m no huge fan of hypnosis, what you have determined after much research is just confirmation of the personal, biased opinion that you have always held. The research just reinforced what you wish to believe, that being highly suggestible is the equivalent of a disability.


actually, there is much controversy even among the experts as to if such as thing as hypnosis even exists or if there is such thing as a trance state. since it is a subjective experience, it is also very difficult to discover exactly what people are actually experiencing, if and when they are being honest, when they are just trying to play along to please the hypnotist, and how much their preconceived notions effect their behavior under hypnosis. in fact, in many studies i read a group which did not go any induction but instead the participants were asked to imagine things as being real was compared to a hypnotized group and there was often times little different in the results for the subjects who were in the highly hypnotizable range.

i would also dispute that being able to put yourself in a state of disfunction can be considered an ability. in any other context not remembering or being able to function is not an ability but a flaw so imo it is dishonest to paint it in a positive light.. for example, one would never say that someone with a very bad memory has an ability to forget.

i would not consider your tongue rolling example as a good analogy though as it is a physical skill which does not require experiencing an altered sense of reality or a forgoing of logical rationality.

i questioned my recent conclusion also so i looked a little more to see if there were any papers which suggested the same thing. i found one just today after writing the first post and here is a sample of what it said:

"Positive schizotypyal features could be considered to be a recurring theme of the personality
correlates of hypnotizability. Beginning with absorption, what distinguished high from
medium hypnotizability was the association of high absorption with thinking in images
and belief in the supernatural; both, but especially the latter, are important features of
the schizotypal unreality syndrome. Fantasy proneness and creativity were also linked with
magical thinking. This characterizes the cognitive aspect of unreality in schizotypy and in
schizophrenia is associated with delusional beliefs. Alterations and dissociations of perception
are identical with the perceptual aspect of unreality in schizotypy and are associated
with hallucinations in schizophrenia. Vividness of imagery was associated with having a
deep, vivid quality to thoughts and perceptions—a feature of schizotypal unreality."

and in the final conclusion of the paper, the author wrote this:

"The evidence reviewed suggests to this writer that the relation between a vulnerability
to psychopathology and hypnotizability may well be a real one."

so perhaps my insight is not too off the mark.
ahimsa42
Junior Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:36 pm
Likes Received: 1

#3

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Wed May 22, 2019 1:46 am

ahimsa42 wrote:actually, there is much controversy even among the experts as to if such as thing as hypnosis even exists or if there is such thing as a trance state. since it is a subjective experience,


We can play the “does it exist” game with happiness, good/evil, free will, money, nations, corporations, the mind, truth, psychopathology, etc. All of these are intersubjective. If we want to take an extreme view then we can even play the game of asking if something such as a car exists.

My suggestion, have as much fun as you like with the “does it exist” game, but don’t buy into the philosophical hogwash.

I studied under Gregg Schraw. He was a leader in the field of metacognition and he taught a course where we discussed the intersection between Ontology and Epistemology. The main questions were, (1) to what extent is anything true and (2) regardless of truth, to what extent are we capable of knowing the truth?

https://www.improvewithmetacognition.co ... arty-carr/

You have admitted as much, that you do not like feeling as if you are not in control. You see not being in control as a weakness. Well, what if I told you that the truth is that free will doesn’t exist? What if I told you that all of your actions are predetermined.

Dependent upon your belief, you will search the Internet and find information that proves your belief correct. You will reinforce your belief, because it makes you feel better to believe that is the way the world operates. That is what you have done with reading and then posting in here information that hypnosis or trance doesn’t exist.

The real question is why is it such a fear for you? I think that is the more interesting thing to explore.

i would also dispute that being able to put yourself in a state of disfunction can be considered an ability.


Reread what you wrote. You are going to dispute that “being able to” is not to be considered an “ability”? You are having to try and twist language. If a person is “able to” then by definition they have the ability. Whether or not that ability is harmful is a different question.

An ability can be used in positive or negative ways. You are strictly seeing any ability as harmful, which is counter to tons of research out there. I realize hypnosis has limited application, but it does have positive application.

and in the final conclusion of the paper, the author wrote this:

"The evidence reviewed suggests to this writer that the relation between a vulnerability
to psychopathology and hypnotizability may well be a real one."



Using your logic in the first part of your latest response, some would argue, including experts, that psychopathology doesn’t even exist. It isn’t a real thing. There is no real consensus on what a psychopathology even is. Every few years a bunch of people gather at a meeting and discuss and create lists of symptoms that may or may not exist, etc.

I’m not saying that you are necessarily off the mark. What I do find interesting is that you felt motivated after “much research” to create this thread as to share that you have found research that reinforces what you have wished to believe true all along.

Research is about trying to disprove your hypothesis. It isn’t about confirming what you already wish to believe. So, if your hypothesis is that hypnosis doesn’t exist, prove that it does exist. If your hypothesis is that there is no benefit to being hypnotized, prove that there are benefits. That is how good research moves forward.

Here is a study about hypnosis and the benefits in reducing ‘dental anxiety’.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ra ... tients.pdf

You would agree that dental anxiety is a common issue. Many people avoid going to the dentist, so if hypnosis can help, then it is a positive ability, correct?

If you can allow yourself to acknowledge that for something as simple as dental anxiety hypnosis can be positive, then might there also be positive application in other ways?
User avatar
Richard@DecisionSkills
MVP
MVP
 
Posts: 10433
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:25 am
Likes Received: 1074



  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to Hypnosis