Is it anxiety? Out of love and confused

#15

Postby Limb0 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:11 pm

It was an example I used, mistakes can be made in any relationship, despite the strength of the relationship, and the SO will react in whatever way regardless of the strength of that relationship. Some people may be impulsive and wreckless and make a big mistake even if that relationship was extremely strong, the temptation or whatever else could be a factor of cheating even if they have everything they could have wished for at home.

But I do believe a single event could change a relationship yes, it could be the catalyst. She has told me that her feelings stared to fray since that happened, and she became more detached as time went on. So to me and all I have to go with is that of which she has told me. I knew someone who was with a partner who was completely against drugs, this couple from what I knew were in a healthy and seemingly strong relationship, the guy goes and does some cocaine, she finds out, and then that's it, end of relationship.

I'm not saying in an instant she lost the feelings all together, but it was that event that started the decline in her feelings towards me, is that really impossible?

I am grateful for your replies and I also appreciate your perspective, I am not entirely unwelcome to a harsher or tougher view on the situation, I have pondered before on the perspective you have put forward. I guess really, as is my nature I'm optimistic and am trying to hold onto some hope that there is a way of reconciliation, I'm not completely narrow minded as to deny your possibility, it's just when I ask many of times is it because you just fell out of love or believe we are not compatible, or that you don't find me attractive, or you want different things from life, or that I wasn't good enough as partner or a father etc etc.. it always comes back to her replying with no, I was very happy and everything was great before the miscarriage, I cannot fault you as a partner or father and I believe we'd still be happy if we'd not suffered the miscarriage, so with me asking her to lay it all on the table and be upfront, blunt and honest, and to get that same response over and over ... It's all I have to go with
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#16

Postby Limb0 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:33 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
Limb0 wrote:...is that strong because it's lasted 30 years?


Time is not an indication of strength.

Our relationship was definitely strong. We laughed together all the time. We did caring things for one and other. We didn't argue of stupid inane sh**, we didn't have any drama because there was nothing to cause any drama since neither of us are petulant. We loved each others company and were excited for our future. We both worked and shared chores. We both had good outgoing social lives, neither of us got jealous since there was alot of trust, neither of us controlled or told one and other what we must or must not do (unless very necessary, but never the case as neither of us are stupid and overstep any lines).

So if that's not strong then what on earth is?


One that includes romantic feelings equal in strength to the foundation of the relationship. This means, feelings of love that are so strong that a drunken one night stand is beyond laughable, and that a miscarriage is not enough to be the singular reason a relationship is destroyed.


You've lost me here a little sorry, the situation is extremely confusing to us both. If she's feeling such guilt, hopelessness, and that she doesn't love herself, which she has told me before, is it not possible at all that this could be protected onto the relationship? Is it really as black and white as...we were very much in love, enjoying sex, enjoying being around each other, enjoying family time etc... But all along I wasn't the one and it took an event such as this for her to realise that? So she'd been convincing herself for 5 years without knowing, that I'm the one for her? All along subconsciously picking up on faults or traits of myself or the relationship, and then bam, miscarriage, oh yeah actually he's not the one? It to me just seems more unlikely
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#17

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:54 pm

Limb0 wrote:I'm not saying in an instant she lost the feelings altogether, but it was that event that started the decline in her feelings towards me, is that really impossible?


Okay...let's assume that you are correct. I agree with you. There is some point in every terminated relationship where we can point to the "beginning of the end". Let's assume you have insight and that you have hit the nail on the head. The miscarriage is the cause.

What now?

There is nothing you can really do is there? It is convenient. It does allow you to hold out hope that there is a way of reconciliation, but it is ultimately on her. She needs to work through her issues, she needs to change her mind, she needs to get the help she needs.

What must you do in the meantime? Wait. Nod your head in support. Offer to drive her to therapy. After all, your behaviors outside of a single time you missed an appointment were basically gold.

I guess really, as is my nature I'm optimistic and am trying to hold onto some hope that there is a way of reconciliation...


This is where we differ I think. I don't see your perspective as very optimistic at all.

Your optimism is based on a fantasy that the problem is hers to own. You have not changed in 5 years and there is no reason for you to change. Your behaviors have been perfectly fine, pretty much awesome other than the one time you missed the appointment. So you don't need to consider, modify, change, or otherwise grow as a person to improve your own role in the relationship ending.

The relationship ending is all on her and you don't understand it, but hey it is not your fault so it is really up to her to change if reconciliation is going to happen. That is optimistic to you? It isn't to me...not at all.
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#18

Postby Limb0 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:38 pm

I've been willing to stay and support her, she's currently getting help. I've just come here for perspective, or if anyone has been through something similar and can relate, I know what I must do but it is easier said than done. I have frustrated her with questions, going around in circles to be left with the same unfulfilled response where by she cannot give an answer as she cannot explain her mind.

I sense sarcasm in your response, I don't need to be patronised Richard. When I'm being told by her that nothing I've done or any behaviours of mine have contributed to the way she feels then what on earth do you expect me to consider? I am not reluctant to change if that's what she feels she needs from me, but she hasn't pinpointed to me anything about myself that she finds unnatractive or any behaviours that I must change in order to become more appealing, or any aspects of our lifestyle, so how can I change things when there is nothing apparent to be changed? I do not believe the problem is here to own, I would like for us to both tackle it together, but I cannot claim responsibility for things I haven't done can I? What would you like for me to say? That I've been an angry partner that has called her name's, hit her or broke promises or been unthoughtful? Because I haven't, so how exactly do you suggest I claim some of the problem? I didn't cause the miscarriage, neither did she, it is no one's fault.

I'm willing to go to relationship counseling, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to keep us together, to keep our family together
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#19

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:04 pm

Patronizing? I do not see it, but feel however you wish.

I understand you have no guidance from her. I am sure that is frustrating. It would be great if she said it was that you don’t surprise her with flowers. It would be great if she could point to some specific behaviors, to give you direction, but she can’t or won’t. She doesn’t want to take the lead, she doesn’t want to provide guidance, or she just doesn’t have the energy.

What next?

You say support her, but what does that even mean? Again, it means listen, wait, and drive her to therapy?

My point is you are being passive rather than active. At least, it seems like you are being passive, waiting for her instructions.

Here is an idea. Why not begin behaving in ways, new ways, that you believe to be possible romantic gestures? While I’m sure you have already done so much and tried everything, there are always new ways, new gestures, new things that you can do to show her how much you care, right?

Maybe not. Maybe there are no behaviors you can change without approval from her, without her guidance and direction. That’s not patronizing, it is reality. If you seriously believe that there are absolutely no behaviors you can pursue without insight from her, then you are in a “hope” for reconciliation mode. You are left with nothing you can do other than be the passive person waiting for her to change.
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#20

Postby Limb0 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:39 pm

Sorry it just felt like that. It is frustrating yes, if I knew where I was going wrong then of course I'd do what I could to try and change that. By support I mean listen to her when she needs to talk and is feeling down, not pressure or ask too many questions, be understanding, give her space when she needs it, support her anyway she needs, she has her own car so she drives to the counseling herself, I've offered to wait in the waiting room with her if that would be of any help or support, but she says she's ok to do it herself.

Yes any gestures right now I believe won't do much good, I mean I've ran her a bath, made her dinner, but these are normal things I'd do anyway, I didn't do it with the intention of a romantic gesture, I don't think she wants me to do anything romantically for her, so I do things as a friend to show her that I care. I was thinking of writing her a letter to show her how much I care, but then again she doesn't want me to do anything as a boyfriend, also don't want to make her feel any worse for not feeling how she used to about me, which I feel a letter of how much I love her would probably result in.

You said it, which is why I say I'm in limbo, no guidance, I feel when I ask questions, or ask if we can just start a clean slate and try and rebuild she feels incredible pressure, so as you say all I'm left with is waiting around to see if the counseling she gets will give her insight and therefore in return give me the insight so we can either rebuild or go our separate ways. I really don't know what to do other than wait for her to completely make her mind up as to wether we give things a try, go relationship counseling or whatever else, I feel very much useless and holding onto hope that she will soon get some clarity and understand why she is feeling the way she is, what else can I do? I don't feel like walking away right now is the right thing to do
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#21

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:58 am

Limb0 wrote:...I don't think she wants me to do anything romantically for her, so I do things as a friend to show her that I care. I was thinking of writing her a letter to show her how much I care, but then again she doesn't want me to do anything as a boyfriend, also don't want to make her feel any worse for not feeling how she used to about me, which I feel a letter of how much I love her would probably result in.


So as she moves on with her life you will sit around passively waiting and hope she returns?

You need to stop this passive stance you have. Don’t sit around waiting. If she doesn’t want you, tell her you respect her opinion and will start seeking out someone who does want you. Tell her the miscarriage was unfortunate, wish her luck, tell her you will work with her regarding your daughter, and then tell her you will start seeking out your next romantic relationship and encourage her to do the same.

This will make it clear that you are not a product with an indefinite shelf life that will always be there whenever she gets done deciding what she does or does not want.

My gut feeling from what you have written is that she has her mind made up and she is just trying to be nice. She sees the relationship as beyond repair and feels guilty. It is hard for her to tell you why, so she just repeats over and over in various forms, “It’s not you, it’s me.” She hopes if she repeats it long enough that eventually you will stop asking.
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#22

Postby quietvoice » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:33 am

~
Richard seems to me to have provided sensible answers.

As an older (widowed) female who has never had children nor had a miscarriage, I cannot directly speak for how that would affect the feminine romantic sensibilities. But . . . I have noticed about myself that whenever I've been in love, if I lose that feeling about the other person, it's over. There's no going back.

Her not wanting to let you down, thoughts of raising your daughter with separated parents, thoughts of surviving in the world apart from your support, as time goes on these may be adding to her feelings of anxiety and/or depression.*

It is at least time to consider moving on from the relationship as it stands. You hovering over her when she's no longer interested is doing you no favors. She has changed her view of life, for whatever reason. The lightning has struck the tower and it is falling apart.

Perhaps, when you two actually separate, the relationship can over time take on a deeper flavor, become more mature, as you co-parent your children.

This is life, full of unexpected twists and turns.


*Low-functioning endocrine gland system will bring on anxiety and depression. Please consider taking time to listen to the YouTube channel robertmorsend for how to allow the body to become its vibrant self, as well as the John Rose channel.
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#23

Postby Limb0 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:38 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
Limb0 wrote:...I don't think she wants me to do anything romantically for her, so I do things as a friend to show her that I care. I was thinking of writing her a letter to show her how much I care, but then again she doesn't want me to do anything as a boyfriend, also don't want to make her feel any worse for not feeling how she used to about me, which I feel a letter of how much I love her would probably result in.


So as she moves on with her life you will sit around passively waiting and hope she returns?

You need to stop this passive stance you have. Don’t sit around waiting. If she doesn’t want you, tell her you respect her opinion and will start seeking out someone who does want you. Tell her the miscarriage was unfortunate, wish her luck, tell her you will work with her regarding your daughter, and then tell her you will start seeking out your next romantic relationship and encourage her to do the same.

This will make it clear that you are not a product with an indefinite shelf life that will always be there whenever she gets done deciding what she does or does not want.

My gut feeling from what you have written is that she has her mind made up and she is just trying to be nice. She sees the relationship as beyond repair and feels guilty. It is hard for her to tell you why, so she just repeats over and over in various forms, “It’s not you, it’s me.” She hopes if she repeats it long enough that eventually you will stop asking.


She knows the miscarriage was unfortunate without me having to tell her that. I'm not focused on finding another romantic relationship, that's not what I want right now, I love this woman, so how can I just suddenly move onto another?
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#24

Postby quietvoice » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:39 am

Limb0 wrote:I love this woman

You can love this woman. You can love her always and forever. That doesn't mean that you must live with her and dote upon her and restrict her freedom to move on with her life if she so desires.

Find out if she's ready to live her life without you by her side (she might not be). If so, pay heed, and let her be. That is love.
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#25

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:36 pm

Limb0 wrote:I'm not focused on finding another romantic relationship, that's not what I want right now, I love this woman, so how can I just suddenly move onto another?


What you want right now doesn’t seem relevant. Does it? Given the entirety of what you have posted you think what you want has any bearing on reality?

People on the Titanic probably didn’t want to get into a lifeboat, but it was their least bad option. They certainly would have preferred their past life, the one where they continued to sail comfortably across the Atlantic. But, that wasn’t reality was it? They didn’t have that option, did they?

You might believe the above analogy is not the same as your situation, but I beg to differ. You feel helpless, frustrated, and the captain of the ship can’t give you any guidance. All the captain keeps saying is that it isn’t your fault the ship is sinking. So you just stand there, hoping the captain will save the ship. The problem is that you can even see the captain is getting into a life boat! She has even told you not to try and save the ship as she knows there is nothing you can do. She has stopped trying and so she is leaving the ship with you standing on the deck saying, “This is not what I want. I’ll wait.”
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#26

Postby Limb0 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:24 pm

Thanks quietvoice for your replies.

I would never restrict her freedom, if she wants to leave then she can of course.

We talked a little this morning, she is still confused and unsure as to what she wants, she tells me her mind is hard to explain, i told her to just be brutally honest, lay it all out on the table, tell me wether or not you want us to part ways entirely, she tells me again that she doesn't know. So I ask more questions, she tells me once again that it's down to not being able to get close, feeling numb or indifferent, and when we get intimate or affectionate she says the feelings of the miscarriage surface, she says she wishes so badly that she could stop these feelings and that we could go back to how our relationship used to, or rather how she used to feel about us. So there, I've tried to get what I feel is some closure or some indication as to what the next step would be, but it always comes back to that, and there is Richard telling me that it's entirely impossible for her mental state of mind to have any impact upon how she perceives me and the relationship, here on a mental health forum asking for advice to be told that it is not possible for a miscarriage or any other stressor in life to affect a relationship? A friend of mine, his wife; she suffered post natal depression with their first child, she told my friend she no longer loved him, they somehow got through and now they have two more kids, go figure.

Richard, this is what you put a couple posts back ... ''If she doesn’t want you, tell her you respect her opinion and will start seeking out someone who does want you''

And now you've stated
"What you want right now doesn’t seem relevant. Does it? Given the entirety of what you have posted you think what you want has any bearing on reality?"

So why suggest I tell her that I want to go and find someone who does want me, then tell me the next instance that what I want is irrelevant?

And the analogy... Do you really see my patience or willingness to wait and see how things turn out as me being weak or something? Is it such a bad thing that I'm willing to wait for her to figure out what she wants instead of just running from the situation? Yes it's frustrating for me, and of course no doubt for her too, yes there will come a time where by enough is enough, and yes there are boundaries, if she stops having a financial input then of course I would not just say 'yeah no worries I'll pay for everything, you're struggling mentally' or if she starts seeing someone else without actually ending the relationship between us for good 'yeah no problem, you go around and ****, I'll just be here waiting'. I'm no pushover, I'll concentrate on me, my kids, friends, family, hobbies etc in the meantime, if she needs the time to go through her counseling and work on her grief with the miscarriage, then what do you suggest is the problem with me waiting if she cannot yet give a definitive answer?
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#27

Postby quietvoice » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:52 pm

Limb0 wrote: what do you suggest is the problem with me waiting if she cannot yet give a definitive answer?

So, why are you here?

Oh, yes . . .

Limb0 wrote:Hi guys, I'll try keep this short. Looking for some insight, and to see if it's possible my fiancee (ex?) has maybe got anxiety.

Yes. She has anxiety.
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#28

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:21 pm

Limb0 wrote:So why suggest I tell her that I want to go and find someone who does want me, then tell me the next instance that what I want is irrelevant?

...if she needs the time to go through her counseling and work on her grief with the miscarriage, then what do you suggest is the problem with me waiting if she cannot yet give a definitive answer?


First, you continue to believe the single event is "the cause", i.e. the miscarriage. You point to friends that had "a cause" and moved on to have two more kids. This fails to take into consideration your own point that 30 years is not an indication of a strong relationship. Neither is having two more kids. You are selectively picking ways to justify and circle back to this very narrow and simplistic view of a singular cause.

I'm not, nor have I ever stated that the miscarriage is not causal. At least that is not my intent. My main reason for my responses was to offer up for consideration that most relationships do not fail or survive based on a single cause. I have tried to widen your search for reasons beyond the miscarriage. In my opinion, you believe that you have given all other potential causes their just due. Or you argue that you can't act on information you do not have. Fair enough.

Second, my suggestion regarding telling her that you are...or that you will be moving on with your life is a proactive behavior that starts a clock. This helps both you and her. Psychologically we react to potential loss. It's called "loss aversion". You don't want to lose her, so you are willing to wait indefinitely. She doesn't experience the loss aversion regarding you, because you are not going anywhere.

As for what you want being irrelevant, see the above paragraph. You don't want to act. You want to stand on the deck and hope.

Let me rephrase. You need to establish under what conditions you will be leaving the relationship. You need to communicate that to her. Don't leave her not knowing under what conditions you will leave. Don't tell her that you will always be waiting. Don't tell her that the fate of the relationship is in her hands. Provide her clarity. This will help her move forward. It will help both of you to move forward. Does that make sense?

Third, you spoke with her again this morning, you told her to be brutally honest, and again she repeats the same mantra, "It's not you, it's me." How many times will you repeat that conversation?

I believe giving a person a reasonable amount of time and space to work through an issue is perfectly fine. The fact you are in here is a decent indicator that "reasonable" has passed. I'm not saying that definitively. I'm saying that you have been giving her time and space and you are not seeing the results you want.

Conversely, she seems to be giving you time. She keeps repeating the mantra and telling you not to do boyfriend things, hoping that you will be the one to take definitive action. You are waiting on her and she is waiting on you. She wants you to be the one to definitively end the relationship. That would give her relief. She doesn't want to be the bad guy so she will just keep repeating the mantra.

Hope at least some of what I wrote makes sense.
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#29

Postby Limb0 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:49 pm

Quietvoice, is there really an issue though, with me if waiting and giving her time? How is that relevent to me starting this thread looking for some insight or advice? Like you said you've never had children, neither a miscarriage, I'm possibly about to lose everything I care for, and I find myself getting insensitive and hostile responses on here, some of what has been suggested has been helpful, but you guys seem to have a slightly callous approach, maybe it's all lost in translation, I'm from the UK, perhaps we're not so blunt, and perhaps also we don't just jump to making assumptions.

Richard, to me, it seems that it was your intent, you basically told me that she must have found flaws or traits in me prior to the miscarriage and that the miscarriage shown her all the apparent dark and horrible behaviours of my personality. Yes I agree I could be proactive, I'm not willing to wait around forever, I'll talk more to her and try and suggest relationship counseling, I just didn't want to pile on too much pressure whilst she is already getting her grief counseling, which has already been dragged out and then appointments getting cancelled on their end etc.

I'm in here trying to seek advice or insight, or any similar stories shared. But yes, I'd have liked by now at 3 months in to maybe have been some definitive answer as to where we stand. Twice she has tried to get the relationship going again, the first time things went well the first two days, we had sex,it was good, we were sharing the same bed and we went out for a drink and did normal couple things during those two days, then she goes to work a day later, her colleague brings in her newborn baby and bam she comes back upset and no longer wants to be intimate, but instead take things slowly and do things as friends in hope she will feel normal again. The second time lasted less than one night, again we had sex, the next morning she was again withdrawn and telling me how I remind her of the miscarriage. So no, the results haven't been great, but it's a glimmer of hope when she makes the effort.

I'm not so sure about the last part you've written, there is no real incentive for her to leave it for me to call it quits, I've made it very clear to her that she can do that whenever she likes, if that's what she wants. There is no financial gain for either of us, no incentive on who leaves first
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