Confused after talking to doctor... Please help

#30

Postby Eroica » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:06 pm

"PAWS is definitely a real thing

Actually it isn't, that's why there's no medical 'cure'. The only people researching it are off their faces. It's merely a convenient umbrella term for any and every misery people experience a couple of weeks after quitting any habit -- all of which, as pointed out several times, are equally common in people who've never used."

That is such a ridiculous argument. If PAWs isnt real because theres no cure then cancer, depression, PTSD, and OCD arent real either.

Are you actually arguing that withdrawal isnt real? I didnt know people who quit watching tv experience DTs like those who quit alcohol. Or those who experience hallucinations after quitting benzos.

When bodies are flooded with drugs they will react with symptoms when those drugs are taken away.

Of course PAWS will lead to lots of symptoms. Drugs affect every body system.
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#31

Postby quietvoice » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:33 pm

Eroica wrote:Of course PAWS will lead to lots of symptoms. Drugs affect every body system.



cannabis stored in fat cells slow release (google search)

. . . for those who are uncertain why PAWS would be a problem.
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#32

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:40 am

olympus92 wrote: I'll be the bigger person out of these boomers and leave the thread now.


Good, good, run along now. Shoo. No need to apologize. You are forgiven for your ignorance.
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#33

Postby uniqueason » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:39 am

lmfao who fook is that guy
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#34

Postby tokeless » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:21 am

That is such a ridiculous argument. If PAWs isnt real because theres no cure then cancer, depression, PTSD, and OCD arent real either.

Now that is ridiculous. Show me where anyone has said withdrawal isn't real... They haven't. What has been argued is this cannabis PAWS phenomenon, even by people who smoked once or twice and not "flooded'with drugs. The click on here are self assuring each other that they have PAWS and it's real bad and compare each others symptoms and validate their own so it must be PAWS even though several admit they had some of these issues before they smoked... Was that PAWS too?
Show some evidence other than each other and let's debate it. You haven't yet explained how you are trained in PAWS yet and I suspect it's because you can't, it's just your 'whataboutery' logic as you started with the above quote. Please try and see we doubters are actually trying to help you. What benefit would i get from just pecking you? I've better things to do, trust me. I quit years ago and just moved on with my life
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#35

Postby Candid » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:33 am

Eroica wrote:Are you actually arguing that withdrawal isnt real?


Of course not. Yes, it hurts to give up something that's given you an identity and takes over your every waking thought. Withdrawal from a substance or habit is hard.

But then there's afterwards. What do you do when you've got over the withdrawal symptoms? Life looks bleak. You've forgotten who you were and how you kept yourself amused before it was all about scoring and using.

Enter PAWS, the moaning half-veiled regret that you've given up and envy of those who haven't.
It would be so easy to start up again. I get it that you need to align yourself with others who've also given up but not yet found their way to straight friends and a more productive way of living. So you look for allies and start counting the days. It's been four days, it's been a week, it's been nearly three months ah god how I miss it... all the time exhorting others "Stay strong!" And then all you can focus on is the insomnia, the headaches, the nausea, the minor aches and pains and cerebral disturbances everyone feels from time to time, regardless of whether they've ever used or not.

When bodies are flooded with drugs they will react with symptoms when those drugs are taken away.


Yes, until the drugs have left their system and they've instituted better habits and a healthier focus for their minds. But what we're talking about is POST physical withdrawal, otherwise it'd just be AWS.

What a shame the imaginary stuff makes a word. That gives the false impression that it's actually a thing. Not only that, it's a thing that goes on for years. Got a headache six years after your quit? Oh bugger, you've still got PAWS. 88,000 posts (not people) can't be wrong...
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#36

Postby Candid » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:36 am

tokeless wrote:Please try and see we doubters are actually trying to help you.


Yes, that. And it's good to know we helped the OP, who walked away happy on page 1.
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#37

Postby whathaveidone » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:29 pm

This thread got too toxic to follow, I just want to leave my honest opinion before getting the **** out of here.

The average THC content in weed has spiked dramatically since 2009, and is far stronger than the weed in the 70's and 80's. Not only is the THC content much higher, but it also contains on average less of the other cannabinoids (CBD, CBN) which are thought to have a balancing/antagonistic effect to the THC. Look it up.

I say this to note that there's simply no precedent to this. We don't know the consequences, there are no studies! For now all we have are the anecdotal accounts of people like the users in this forum. Coming here and claiming we are suffering from some sort of collective delusion is frankly arrogant considering that you DON'T HAVE EVIDENCE AGAINST IT. Considering the increasing prevalence and intensity of the reported withdrawal symptoms
I hope there are studies in the future. I have a hunch that in 10 years we'll a know that increasing THC in our weed at such high rates was not a good idea.

I posted on this forum because I was going through a tough few days of extreme anxiety and brain fog that felt very similar to the first couple of weeks of withdrawal. It freaked me out because unlike my pre-weed anxiety I couldn't pinpoint it to any specific cause.
(I've definitely had anxiety and depression in the past and I could definitely consider the possibility that I was vulnerable to a weed induced episode of depression/anxiety. But let me stress again that I HAD NEVER, NOT EVEN CLOSE FELT WHAT I FELT IN THE TIME AFTER I STOPPED SMOKING. My congnition was severely affected to the point that at the ER they had me do CT scans and all kinds of other tests because I was exhibiting signs of a stroke.)

I'm honestly starting to believe that this PAWS thing is real. THC stays in your body for a long time, over 90 days for heavy users. It is stored in fat cells. Look it up.
Also worth noting that some Swedish hospitals use a manual that claims that withdrawal from 6% THC weed lasts about 6 weeks.
I was smoking 18% weed. My last few joints were over 20%.

So yeah, if we want to be scientific we have to understand that the variables have changed (higher THC) and so our understanding of weed withdrawal is now even more limited that in used to be.

All the best to all of you, I'm never logging back in. Go get some f***ing fresh air, specially you guys with the f***ing profile pictures lol
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#38

Postby tokeless » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:00 pm

Sorry you feel like that about it. As for evidence, it's hard to prove something doesn't exist. I don't think anyone denied withdrawal exists but I'm sceptical it can last for some of thd times stated on here. I agree the THC issue is important and I've read many here were smoking concentrates with stupidly high levels.. I guess you make your choices and take the consequences doing stuff like that. Anyway, I wish you well in your journey and you will.
Best wishes
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#39

Postby SparkleFly12 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:04 pm

This thread has turned so toxic...

I dont know how someone can claim that PAWS from weed isnt real. Yes, there are people that suffer from depression, anxiety, etc. and who don't smoke. But then why do people suffer from these for the 1-2 years after they stop smoking; and never suffer from it before or after those 1-2 years? Personally, no, I didnt have a terrible life and my life outlook was and still is great. But I suffered all these symptoms after weed.

For people who suffer these symptoms who didnt smoke weed, sure the answer may be to "get over it" (I dont know exactly what it is, and I dont pretend to). But for weed PAWS - the only cure is time. Misdiagnosing leads to mistreatment. Dont try and apply the cure for one condition onto another condition - it wont work and will only make things worse.

And as for the "Research" into weed PAWS: It is finally starting, and yes the research that has been done up until now says PAWS from weed is real. The biggest institute researching the topic is the UCLA Health Cannabis Research Initiative. They state that they have no medication to treat it - and that is a problem that needs to be changed, not a reason that it doesn't exist. They also accept that some people get withdrawal and PAWS but others dont - and they dont know why yet. Just because we don't understand it, doesnt mean its not real.
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#40

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:33 am

NOBODY has claimed PAWS from weed is not real!

The only thing anyone has suggested is that PAWS has become the catch all or go to anytime a person that smoked weed experiences a “symptom”. This overconfidence can cause unintended consequences, masking the actual cause.

If anyone is being delusional it is the crowd of people that feel threatened by the mere suggestion that every symptom they experience may not, in fact, be PAWS related. It is this delusion that if 88,000 anecdotal posts exist about a topic that this somehow makes it heresy to point out the obvious, that not all of the posts are actually caused by PAWS. At least some of the people are using PAWS to explain and join the conversation when actually it is not PAWS.

If the thread has become “toxic” it is only because the PAWS crowd feels threatened that a few people might hint, suggest, or otherwise question the validity of every “symptom” being PAWS rather than some other fundamental cause.
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#41

Postby tokeless » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:49 am

Probably for the best. The main contribution has been indulgence and refusal to accept other potentials and of course the tantrums and name calling... How mature.
Reminds me of the data sheets in medicines. Just because they state every potential side effect doesn't mean you'll get them. However, many read them and then suddenly feel them, so they must have them even though they didn't experience them before reading the sheet. Anyway, there's room at the Inn as the saying goes and life goes on if you let it.
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#42

Postby Candid » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:21 am

whathaveidone wrote:This thread got too toxic to follow, I just want to leave my honest opinion before getting the **** out of here.


I'm sorry you regret starting this thread, because I think it's been a good one. It brought out all the perspectives on what happens after you quit a long-term habit.

As everyone is agreeing, life feels deeply unpleasant when you remove a long-term feel-good habit from your repertoire. It helps some people, though, to know they had lots of good reasons for quitting, and they're no longer at the mercy of unscrupulous dealers who may or may not be spiking their product with lethal substances.

Being clean after years of abuse is an amazing accomplishment, and I salute all the people on this thread. I get it that for now you can be a bit over-sensitive on the subject, which is why the PAWS-doubters aka boomers are hoping you can get your minds off Being An Addict, wake up and smell the coffee, start enjoying life and noticing all the good things around you. This is a second chance at life, a miraculous rebirth. Look for what's good in your life and put the toxic years behind you.

I'm going to direct you to a diary thread by a long-gone member called Jazzz. It ran from May 2009 to May 2011, apparently before PAWS had been invented. If you fancy an awesome, inspirational and gripping read about quitting, look at viewtopic.php?t=49892.

whathaveidone, as I scrolled through your most recent post I had one thought: All of us are ultimately headed for death. Life isn't all roses for anyone. That's part of the bargain inherent in being born: You're going to suffer. How you suffer is different for each and every one of us; and how you process your suffering is an individual matter, a choice.

Stay strong, everyone!
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#43

Postby SparkleFly12 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:43 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:NOBODY has claimed PAWS from weed is not real!


two posts above:

Candid wrote:What a shame the imaginary stuff makes a word. That gives the false impression that it's actually a thing. Not only that, it's a thing that goes on for years. Got a headache six years after your quit? Oh bugger, you've still got PAWS. 88,000 posts (not people) can't be wrong...


Everyone who posts here has three things in common:

1. They were normal people with no depression, anxiety, etc.
2. Then the smoked a lot of weed
3. They started having PAWS symptoms

It came from the weed. Full stop. Suggesting that it maybe didnt come from the weed is only hurting them; implying that it is just the way they are now. Reassuring them that it is temporary - because it is - is the best thing they can hear. Sure, "everyone feels that from time to time" is true, but they dont feel it every day for 6+ months. That is not normal at all; and it isn't something you can just "get over" with a different outlook on your life. Its a chemical imbalance in the brain that just needs time to recover. Its worse for some than others; so just because you or I didnt think it was intense doesnt mean someone else isnt going through hell.

I really hope this tag team will be more mindful in the advice they give; and consider all the facts - that the problems all started after cessation of weed; and thus are most likely caused by said cessation. You can really mess with suffering people's heads, telling them that they just need to get over it and that this is not a temporary phenomenon.
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#44

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:03 am

SparkleFly12 wrote:
Everyone who posts here has three things in common:

1. They were normal people with no depression, anxiety, etc.
2. Then the smoked a lot of weed
3. They started having PAWS symptoms

It came from the weed. Full stop. Suggesting that it maybe didnt come from the weed is only hurting them; implying that it is just the way they are now.


-First-
The same as nobody has claimed that withdrawal symptoms from smoking weed are not real, nobody has claimed “that is just the way you are now”.

PAWS is a made up term like all other terms. It is an acronym, a construct, a way to to help discuss real symptoms that MIGHT be related to withdrawal from weed. In this limited sense PAWS is not real. That doesn’t mean the physical symptoms a person experiences are not real.

-Second-
The chain of causation you have listed is fair; (1) eat spicy wings, (2) get heart burn, (3) must have been the spicy wings...(1) stop smoking weed, (2) experience depression, (3) must have been the weed.

The positive point that people, including myself are making, is that it isn’t always the spicy wings or symptoms of withdrawal that are causing the heart burn or the depression. These symptoms can be caused by other things. And when you have not eaten spicy wings in a few days, you might want to reconsider the cause. Maybe you might need to address a different underlying cause that is the real culprit and doing your heart some significant damage. And if it’s been a year and you feel depressed, you might want to consider other causes of that particular symptom. Same as it might no longer be the spicy wings, it may very well no longer be lingering chemicals in your brain from marijuana.

You seem to think pointing that out is negative and that it implies it is “just the way they are now”. I don’t see it that way. I see it as helping someone by giving them room to consider alternative causes. And with alternative causes come alternative treatments.

If you believe that “help” means repeating the same few sentences for every resurfaced symptom, then I disagree. Saying, “I’ve been there, it’s normal, it’s temporary” is nice and supportive, but it could also be very, very wrong. And what might be the consequences if/when you are wrong? How many depressed people have been told, “Don’t worry, it’s PAWS, trust me, I’ve been there, it’s temporary,” and it turns out that they had other causes of the depression that they didn’t consider because you reassured them it was PAWS? You don’t know, because for you it is always, always PAWS full stop. And you don’t know, because possibly the person never returned to talk with you again having failed to address the real cause and they hurt themselves or worse.

The above paragraph is known as survivor bias. The people that tell you thanks for your help, that definitely it was PAWS and keep coming back for more continue to survive and reinforce the narrative. Those that say thanks, but then never return you don’t know what happened to them. Maybe it wasn’t PAWS after all, but you will never know. It becomes a self fulfilling cycle that feeds itself the same reassurances that there is no room for alternate cause.

-Third-
A forum is a place of public discourse. It is not a therapy group, it is not a safe space, it is not a place where everyone shares their experiences and opinions, but only if they agree with everyone else in the group and don’t offend anyone or make them uncomfortable in anyway.

As a forum for discussion it is meant for disagreements of opinion just like we are having right now. Your post is very helpful, because it shows the contrast between our views. This contrast allows for readers, it allows for people experiencing anxiety or depression having stopped smoking weed to consider, “Huh, maybe there could be other causes, maybe other things could be causing my symptoms and that might be something worth actively exploring.”

The bottom line, differences of opinion are welcome in a public forum.
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