my now-former close friend

#30

Postby tokeless » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:01 pm

Yeah, you can't have too much social justice can you? I mean BLM for example.. why can't they just accept their position in society eh? Stoking up division... tut, tut. I mean who wants a more equal society when the right wing is delivering just dandy. I must admit it's great not being in the position of weakness and struggling to get by.. makes the world seem okay really.
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#31

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:29 pm

Given forum rules, I will kindly bow out of the conversation if we begin to delve too far into the politics. I know it is hard to discuss COVID without it bordering on politics.

I'm discussing, and am more interested in, how in a time of crisis, where 180+ countries were not "prepared" for a complex, wicked, ill-structured problem, that we act as if had we been in charge that somehow things would have turned out different.

It's like a fleet of 180 ships encounters the perfect storm, the likes of which no captain nor sailor has ever lived through. All of them suffer significant damage, save one or two. Sailors die on every single ship. There is nothing the captains could have done, but we must place blame, we must hold them accountable. The captain should have known, there should have been more lifeboats, the rigging should have been stowed, they should have turned the boat this direction or that direction.

It's just backseat, hindsight, hogwash, trying to hold people accountable for what apparently 180 captains were unable to prepare for.
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#32

Postby various artist » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:41 pm

Well to tokeless, Oh yeh right it's really that simple isnt it.... If you call yourself 'social justice' then whatever you advocate (and by whatever means) really must be 'just' and good for society (and those you seek to champion),, so the more (& extreme) of it the better. Simple! (minded).

But if someone can see the flaws in those so-called 'liberal' POLITICAL MOVEMENTS then that just makes them a cold hearted fascist person who doesnt want fairness and social equality at all.

Such is the polarisation. Which you have ably demonstrated in your tone.

I doubt that you have any idea about what BLM are really about.
Or any idea about 'positions of weakness', if you think just broadly categorising people by skin pigmentation (or sex) is an intelligent way to designate that and address the real reasons for discrepancies.
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#33

Postby various artist » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:53 pm

"It's just backseat, hindsight, hogwash, trying to hold people accountable for what apparently 180 captains were unable to prepare for."

Agreed

I take the view that the lock down stuff is lunacy really... the billions spent on furlough to prop up the economy (jobs), should have been spent on protecting the vulnerable (mostly older people) with measures that could last longer term- ie., whilst everyone else goes about their normal lives (taking responsibility themselves) and learns to deal with the virus just as we deal with other viruses that we have no proper immunisations for.

Basically in the UK Boris chickened out of that because the Labour party would have made so much political capital out of it (in the short term).
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#34

Postby Candid » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:13 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Stick with the UK for a second. What violence is the UK government doing to its citizens?

We aren't being beaten with sticks, we're just being muzzled. I can't get on a bus or enter most shops without my mask on.

Husband and I went out for brunch a couple of weeks ago, and some of his extended family happened to be in the same venue with the same idea. Naturally we were happy to see them—until we were told he and I had to sit somewhere else, so we delayed our hugs until we were all in the carpark.

What else?

I work. I don't have to, and I don't get a penny for it, but it's a cause I care about. The 'pay' when I started was contact with people who cared about the same things I do. I used to enjoy this job (given that my industry died 10 years ago). I have no contact with those people now. Why am I doing this, when it looks like I'll be doing it 'home alone' indefinitely?

you can't go out to get your coffee

That much I can do. And booze, of course. :roll:

people can't come together (unless they are rioting).

Being an Anglo-Australian I'd do that if I could, but I'm in the UK for the forseeable and we don't do that kind of thing.

I have a colleague that had to give a eulogy for his mother via zoom. It sucks!

I believe it's unnecessary, too.

It is different in the UK?

Of course!! We're nowhere near as assertive here. The most obvious difference is we don't have a gun culture. Knives came in with the Caribbeans (am I allowed to say that??) and dear old Dad had already moved his family to Australia when he saw which way the wind was blowing. So now we have a multicultural society, and I used to like it when I went to town and heard languages I didn't recognise from people passing me by—but to be truthful I was happier pre-1970 when I heard nothing but English on the streets. Now we have enshrouded women, mosques, shops we're unwelcome in, lots of intergroup suspicion... know what I mean? And the old ways are gone forever. We've lost our national identity.

I was stuck in China which was stressful and now I can't go anywhere without being quarantined for 14 days at some outrageous expense.

See, I don't know why China in the first place. For me, a youtube of a fatfaced Chinese woman chomping the head off a terrapin was more than enough!

I don't agree with the rules in place.

Me neither, and maybe that's what we could be discussing.
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#35

Postby various artist » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:42 am

"...so we delayed our hugs until we were all in the carpark."

Oh well that's just fine and dandy. It's his extended family after all, so yeh absolutely no chance of spreading any virus.
:twisted:

It's precisely because people in this country (UK, particularly Northerners it seems) can't be trusted to take reasonable and responsible measures THEMSELVES to limit the virus spreading that we are in this position where politicians feel obliged to make rules limiting our freedoms by law. So you, candid, really have no grounds to complain about that now.... the attitude of you and your husband and his extended family are the problem we are all facing, and the consequences of which we are all having to put up with. So thanks for that. I'm sure all the NHS workers will be so pleased that you didnt miss out on hugging your husband's extended family on this most special occasion.

I'm all for no lockdown or top-down enforced rules... but that doest work when people think social distancing and other responsible actions we can take to limit the spread of germs is just a joke or triviality that doesnt apply to them.

And yeh I get that many of the rules are inconsistent and don't make sense but that's no excuse to not taking the simple measures that do make sense is it.
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#36

Postby Candid » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:36 am

various artist wrote:It's precisely because people in this country (UK, particularly Northerners it seems) can't be trusted to take reasonable and responsible measures THEMSELVES to limit the virus spreading...

Yes, there are a lot of colds around where the weather's cooler. No doubt we'll have coughs and sniffles in the south-east as winter gets going. Same every year, isn't it?

the attitude of you and your husband and his extended family are the problem we are all facing, and the consequences of which we are all having to put up with.

As long as you wear your muzzle, stay 2m away from everyone, and wash your hands a dozen times a day, you'll be fine, right?

I'm all for no lockdown

Me too, but not for "top-down enforced rules". I simply don't believe "distancing and other 'responsible' actions" are necessary, and I reserve the right to have my own opinion.

Sorry to have rattled your cage, though.
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#37

Postby Candid » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:30 am

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#38

Postby Candid » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:02 am

The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk.
https://gbdeclaration.org/
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#39

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:46 pm

various artist wrote: Oh well that's just fine and dandy. It's his extended family after all, so yeh absolutely no chance of spreading any virus. It's precisely because people in this country (UK, particularly Northerners it seems) can't be trusted to take reasonable and responsible measures...


So if various artist was king for a day, "no hugging of extended families".

This is the issue with top-down rules, which Candid doesn't endorse, I don't endorse, and even various artist claims not to endorse. You can't apply a blanket rule about hugs, handshakes, or kisses that will cover every potential social interaction.

Candid was out for brunch. Having brunch is approved by the king. So apparently it is okay for multiple strangers including cooks, waiters, managers, to be touching the food, dishes, tables, chairs, door handles, register, cash, etc. etc. etc., but not okay to hug Uncle Bill.

Its not that top-down rules are ridiculously arbitrary, but rather top-down rules have rationals that are arbitrary, that are selectively justified to allow for selective outrage and selective shaming.

In this situation Candid is to be shamed because the king has declared a hug of a family member is wrong, but interactions with multiple strangers to obtain brunch is fine.
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#40

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:01 pm

Candid wrote:We aren't being beaten with sticks, we're just being muzzled. I can't get on a bus or enter most shops without my mask on.


This is my point. You have been inconvenienced for six months. But no fundamental liberties have been eradicated. The constitution has not been ratified.

We are experiencing similar issues, but with 50 states you have 50 different responses. In the USA the president has been very careful to only issue national "guidelines". It is left up to the states to then impose mandates or push it further down to the counties or cities.

The president is in a lose/lose situation. Any national mandate and he would have been labeled a tyrant. No national mandate and you are responsible for letting the virus spread, the death of innocents. Lose/lose.

We see higher infection rates than other countries for a number of reasons, but certainly no national mandates is one reason...and I think it is a positive reason. I prefer that the states each decide their own approach.
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#41

Postby Candid » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:42 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:In the USA the president has been very careful to only issue national "guidelines".

Ours are sometimes called guidelines and sometimes called rules, and the nation is divided into three tiers. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-covid ... evels-mean

At this stage I'm in tier one because there are relatively few cases in the area. The Rule of Six applies, by which I can be with five other people either indoors or out. Once I've seen-but-not-touched them, each of us can then go away and meet five other people. As long as there are never more than six people together, the king's happy.

Meeting in larger groups is against the law apart from specific exceptions where people from different households can gather in groups larger than 6 people. The police can take action against you if you meet in larger groups. This includes breaking up illegal gatherings and issuing fines (fixed penalty notices).

You can be fined £200 for the first offence, doubling for each further offence up to a maximum of £6,400. If you hold, or are involved in holding, an illegal gathering of over 30 people, the police can issue fines of £10,000.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-covid ... vel-medium

So now it's law, and infractions are punishable. Also, You must wear a face covering in those areas where this is mandated.

In other places, most notably Up North where it's colder, they're on tier two or tier three. That will undoubtedly encompass the whole of England when we're in the grip of winter, with the possible exception of Cornwall.

"no fundamental liberties have been eradicated"? Seems to me the most fundamental, the right to be close to other people, has already gone. I took a bus this week, the most popular and best-used route here which was regularly standing room only and noisy with chatter before The Virus was unleashed on us all. On Tuesday there were half a dozen of us well spaced out downstairs, all muzzled and no one talking. I doubt they were having a party upstairs, either.

I'm with those now saying the cure is worse than the complaint. What's more fundamental than mental health? I dread the darkness of winter every year and have quite enough trouble motivating myself to go out without arbitrary "guidelines", "rules" and "laws".

We'll have to have herd immunity eventually. IMO we should have been working on that six months ago.
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#42

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:04 pm

Candid wrote:"no fundamental liberties have been eradicated"? Seems to me the most fundamental, the right to be close to other people, has already gone.


6 months means liberty is permanently gone?

In WWII people sacrificed certain liberties for how many years? Liberties were not eradicated. Liberties were not gone. For a few years, because a virus called Nazi Germany was trying to conquer Britain, certain liberties were sacrificed. At the time it certainly was tough to make the adjustment to a new reality. As six months extended into a year, then two, then three, it may have felt like liberty would never return. And there was a possibility of losing the war, losing liberty permanently.

I'm with those now saying the cure is worse than the complaint. What's more fundamental than mental health? I dread the darkness of winter every year and have quite enough trouble motivating myself to go out without arbitrary "guidelines", "rules" and "laws".


Me too. Yet I recognize that trying lockdowns was a perfectly reasonable response to an unknown, evolving, dynamic threat. I'm sure in WWII some of the guidelines were oppressive and seemed ridiculous and arbitrary. I'm sure guidelines changed again and again and again.

I guess I'm just not ready to declare the death of liberty because governments all over the world tried lockdowns in response to a pandemic.
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#43

Postby Candid » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:19 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:In WWII people sacrificed certain liberties for how many years? Liberties were not eradicated. Liberties were not gone. For a few years, because a virus called Nazi Germany...

But this is a global movement.

...a perfectly reasonable response to an unknown, evolving, dynamic threat.

The common cold has evolved rapidly since it began its relationships with mammals and reptiles hundreds if not thousands of years ago. That's why there's no vaccine for it and no cure but to let it run its course. People in peak condition are impervious to it and not-so-fit types feel rotten for a few days, gasping for breath at nights.

I'm just not ready to declare the death of liberty because governments all over the world tried lockdowns in response to a pandemic.

Interesting take. There's now a lot of information suggesting that under the microscope cov19 infection is indistinguishable from a cold, that most people recover without going into hospital, and that it was known about in 2017, when governments all around the world were buying up test kits in great quantities. https://www.stopworldcontrol.com/planned/

So now a lot of people are saying a great crime and enormous ruse has been committed worldwide. https://gbdeclaration.org/

And I could watch Elke de Klerk all day... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuSeXNUUmcI
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#44

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:12 pm

So now a lot of people are saying a great crime and enormous ruse has been committed worldwide.


I disagree. A few people, as always, develop conspiracy theories and shout them from the rooftops as it garners them the spotlight.

Candid wrote: There's now a lot of information suggesting that under the microscope cov19 infection is indistinguishable from a cold...


Indistinguishable? So you're telling me that there is a dystopian 1984 global fake media. All the journalists, hospitals, first responders, basically everyone is in on it except for you and me. The Illuminati were able to pull off this global ruse, except like a good murder mystery they forgot one detail, that the "real story" would escape their control. They were able to coordinate and fool everyone, but unable to stop those pesky kids from uncovering and then publishing "the truth".

I've never taken you for a fan of conspiracy theories.
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