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#15

Postby quietvoice » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:12 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:I think now is the time for you and your neighbors to voluntarily sacrifice a few freedoms

Yeah.
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#16

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:54 pm

quietvoice wrote:Yeah.


For full context...

"I think now is the time for you and your neighbors to voluntarily sacrifice a few freedoms to help your community. But, then again, I'm not sure what you are dealing with. Is the military marching down your streets? Are you no longer allowed freedom of speech? Has your right to vote been repealed? Tell me, what freedoms have you lost that you fear will never return?"

Above is what I wrote in context.

Again, what freedoms have you or anyone else lost that will never return? Freedom of speech? Military imposing curfews? Right to vote repealed?

Nope.

It has now been roughly 6 months since the original message. And what happened during this time? Was there some tyrannical national, federal shutdown, stripping everyone of individual liberties and freedom? Nope.

What we have seen is leaders at the state and local levels empowered at the national level to handle the issue. And what happened? Some have done a good job, balancing measures with reason. They will probably be reelected. Others have shown a more tyrannical side. They, in theory, by the power of the voters should not be reelected.

Time for a revolution? Nope. You don't like how your local leadership is handling the coronavirus, go vote.
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#17

Postby quietvoice » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:40 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
quietvoice wrote:Yeah.


For full context...

"I think now is the time for you and your neighbors to voluntarily sacrifice a few freedoms to help your community. But, then again, I'm not sure what you are dealing with. Is the military marching down your streets? Are you no longer allowed freedom of speech? Has your right to vote been repealed? Tell me, what freedoms have you lost that you fear will never return?"

Above is what I wrote in context.

Again, what freedoms have you or anyone else lost that will never return? Freedom of speech? Military imposing curfews? Right to vote repealed?

Nope.

It has now been roughly 6 months since the original message. And what happened during this time? Was there some tyrannical national, federal shutdown, stripping everyone of individual liberties and freedom? Nope.

What we have seen is leaders at the state and local levels empowered at the national level to handle the issue. And what happened? Some have done a good job, balancing measures with reason. They will probably be reelected. Others have shown a more tyrannical side. They, in theory, by the power of the voters should not be reelected.

Time for a revolution? Nope. You don't like how your local leadership is handling the coronavirus, go vote.

Whatever you say, Richard.
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#18

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:02 pm

quietvoice wrote:Whatever you say, Richard.


I guess so quietvoice, given you are silent on the issue.

I posed several questions for people to consider. In your country, what freedoms have you permanently lost, because of government mandates in response to the virus?

Maybe quietvoice lives in a country where there has been a national mandate, shutting down everything and using the virus to rewrite the constitution and impose new draconian laws. I'm not sure which country, but it isn't the United States of America.

There are 180+ countries in the world and 180+ countries responded to the virus using temporary shutdowns in one form or another. Maybe we can point to 2-3 countries that did absolutely nothing, that imposed no rules to minimize the spread of the virus. The whole world should revolt? Hogwash.

If you want to support your case for revolution, by all means share with the forum the drastic measures you see taking place in your area of the world. All I can share is from my personal experience, where the USA is largely open for business, being run state by state.
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#19

Postby Candid » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:01 pm

Good to see you here again, quietvoice. I was afraid we'd lost you.

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:In your country, what freedoms have you permanently lost, because of government mandates in response to the virus?

In the UK I think we now have to assume it's permanent. We've been on restrictions and empty promises for more than six months, and now we're told that will continue at least until April, very likely becoming more restrictive between now and then. We have no say in this.

Maybe we can point to 2-3 countries that did absolutely nothing, that imposed no rules to minimize the spread of the virus.

The ones I'm aware of are doing better than the UK. They went for herd immunity, which with hindsight would have been a good idea, because clearly the virus isn't going away. That was what Our Boris wanted in March, but he got shouted down by his advisers. Since then lots of small businesses have gone to the wall and bigger ones have shut down branches. Our economy is in chaos and all sorts of Bad Stuff is on the increase: poverty, domestic violence, mental illness.

the USA is largely open for business, being run state by state.

It also leads the world in infections, deaths, and of course, riots in the streets.
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#20

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:09 pm

Candid wrote:In the UK I think we now have to assume it's permanent...We have no say in this.


Quietvoice is saying revolution.

It's been all of six months. How long for Brexit? How long for pretty much any major political issue in the last 200 years? Six months and its time to endorse violence? Has the constitution been changed in the last six months?

You have a say. People are voicing their displeasure and they can translate that into votes.

Since then lots of small businesses have gone to the wall and bigger ones have shut down branches. Our economy is in chaos and all sorts of Bad Stuff is on the increase: poverty, domestic violence, mental illness.


Yep. All over the world it is similar. Time for violence? Really? Seriously? That is what you endorse Candid?

Basically a novel virus spreads across the planet with basically every country imposing restrictions. After six months, almost every country still have varying degrees of restrictions. Time for a global uprising Candid? A global Bastille day, blood in the streets...because what? Because the governments of the world couldn't figure out how to return life to normal in 6 months?

It also leads the world in infections, deaths, and of course, riots in the streets.


And? What do you want Candid? Utopia? It sounds like you want the UK to not impose rules yet don't admire the US policy of fewer rules.

So you take issue with how UK is handling the crisis, being too strict... and you take issue with how the USA is handling the crisis, not strict enough.

And then we have quietvoice endorsing violence, because well...you know...because why not.
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#21

Postby Candid » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:17 pm

I'm not asking for violence and I doubt quietvoice is, either. However, violence is being done to citizens all over the world, with major curbs on our freedom to 'protect' us.

I'd rather take my chances ... if I were allowed to.
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#22

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:23 pm

Candid wrote:I'm not asking for violence and I doubt quietvoice is, either.


Agreed. I mistakenly conflated quietvoice's out of context Ben Franklin quote with the response by tokeless and infused a healthy dose of my own assumptions. My apologies, as I incorrectly inserted the term "revolution" into the discussion.

However, violence is being done to citizens all over the world, with major curbs on our freedom to 'protect' us.


Stick with the UK for a second. What violence is the UK government doing to its citizens? It isn't making the news over here. I understand freedom of movement has been temporarily restricted over the last six months. What else?

Please don't misunderstand. Any restriction of movement is not to be taken lightly. It has some really nasty impacts, like it means you can't run a business, you can't go out to get your coffee, you can't visit family and friends, kids can't go to an actual school, people can't come together (unless they are rioting). I have a colleague that had to give a eulogy for his mother via zoom. It sucks!

But what else? What other major freedoms have been curbed? In the USA it is a political battle. There is violence being done to citizens, but it isn't by the government. It is different in the UK?

I'd rather take my chances ... if I were allowed to.


Yep, me too. I wish my freedom to fly around the world wasn't currently restricted. It's been a crap year on this front. I was stuck in China which was stressful and now I can't go anywhere without being quarantined for 14 days at some outrageous expense.

It sucks that in my local area my freedom to move around is still less than pre-COVID. I don't agree with the rules in place. But, I'm also not "giving up an essential liberty to purchase temporary safety" as quietvoice referenced. I understand that there is a temporary curb to my liberty to move about freely. It is a temporary curb that is going on all over the world.

Maybe in the UK things are different.
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#23

Postby tokeless » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:15 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
tokeless wrote: Look at the world pre and post 9/11... the patriot act and the changes contained within it.


I agree with you.

My honest question, what “essential liberties” were taken away or restricted post 9/11?

My answer. I’m not entirely sure, because whatever “essential liberties” were lost it appears to be not very transparent. I’m not a fan of the FISA court and I do believe there are some issues that need to be addressed, but the idea we even know about FISA and that we know about the Patriot act is evidence that there is some oversight.

I personally have not experienced the loss of any “essential liberties” since 9/11. Have you? Sure, flying is a bit more of a pain, it costs a bit more and you need to arrive at the airport a little earlier, but no “essential liberties” have been sacrificed to my knowledge.

And I know there are some rare issues with people caught up in the “no fly” list debacle, but that too is brought out in the media and adjudicated in the courts.


Would you consider the right to privacy an essential liberty. The right to not have my government snooping on my conversations without legal oversight? I would, but we are told we need to be protected from our enemies, the terrorists.. have you seen some of the modern definitions of terrorists and terrorism? They include actions taken against the government?? What, like peaceful protest? Often distraction masks legislation and avoids scrutiny. In the UK we are seeing a lurch to the right, with increased xenophobia and finger pointing to migrants as the cause of service shortage when in reality they were cut. Social division is a dangerous path as you see also in the US. We can play it down and say what losses etc.. until it's gone you don't realise it's importance. Strange times and Brexit hasn't landed yet. Public unrest is a high possibility when the anger rises.
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#24

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:40 pm

tokeless wrote:Would you consider the right to privacy an essential liberty.


How did COVID impact that liberty in the UK?

Post 9/11 we continue to battle that issue, balancing the right to privacy with the safety of the public. In the USA it is a 4th amendment issue argued in the courts. To my knowledge, COVID has not pushed that needle one direction or another.
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#25

Postby tokeless » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:37 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
tokeless wrote:Would you consider the right to privacy an essential liberty.


How did COVID impact that liberty in the UK?

Post 9/11 we continue to battle that issue, balancing the right to privacy with the safety of the public. In the USA it is a 4th amendment issue argued in the courts. To my knowledge, COVID has not pushed that needle one direction or another.


Hi Richard,
I guess I jumped in to the discussion so need to clarify my point. I guess it's for me at least about accountability for the government's actions, in this case gross incompetence. They knew we were not prepared or stocked for a future pandemic for 4 years and ignored the advice they were given and commissioned. Now, here we are in a crisis and they still confuse, distract and avoid accountability. They say back the science, now they ignore it, yet hand out public money like a drunk on a bender. No tendering process, just millions and millions to the private sector who have delivered failure after failure. In the UK we have a historically brilliant public health service, yet they underfund it and use private consultants on stupid daily rates who deliver nothing. Where is the accountability? Every 5 years we get to vote.. is that democracy? Really?
Therefore their policies and actions infringe on my life way more than they need to be long term. They didn't act in time, ignored the advice and talked sh*** to hide their erosion of the public sector... the lack of recourse is an infringement on my right to challenge and be heard. I follow rules but when a fool and a liar tell me rules, I must question their motives and my own courage to say no.
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#26

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:14 am

tokeless wrote:I guess I jumped in to the discussion so need to clarify my point. I guess it's for me at least about accountability for the government's actions, in this case gross incompetence.


How so?

180+ countries. 180+ countries all grossly incompetent? 180+ countries need to be held accountable? Or just the UK?

I know, I know, but..but...but our country wasn't prepared, our country did X, Y, and Z, our country is higher in this statistic or that statistic. Everyone pointing fingers, everyone blaming and acting like if they had been in charge things would be different.

Its all rubbish. Most countries were caught less than fully prepared. All countries made mistakes. All countries didn't know how to respond. If you had been in charge, you would have been no more or less prepared.

So what exactly makes the UK so, so, so much different and so grossly incompetent compared to Yemen, Colombia, France, India, Canada, etc.etc.etc.?

Based on the numbers it looks like the UK responded more or less in a similar fashion to the rest of the world. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the news is skewed over in the USA, but the impression over here is that the UK isn't some freak outlier in how they responded.
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#27

Postby tokeless » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:57 am

So what exactly makes the UK so, so, so much different and so grossly incompetent compared to Yemen, Colombia, France, India, Canada, etc.etc.etc.?

That's whataboutery Richard.. if you're starving in country A, it doesn't help being told people in country B are starving too or worse than you. Each country has it own plans to address pandemics or large scale public health issues. Mine happens to be the UK who were told 4 years earlier you aren't prepared and here's what you need to do to be so.. ignored. That is negligent. If the US was warned of an impending attack and ignored it, shouldn't the government who did answer some serious questions? They are supposed to work for us..

Based on the numbers it looks like the UK responded more or less in a similar fashion to the rest of the world. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the news is skewed over in the USA, but the impression over here is that the UK isn't some freak outlier in how they responded.

I guess you must be because from day 1 they have mismanaged the crisis. Yes, the virus is unique, yes it came out of nowhere and spread across the world. Other European countries acted earlier than us because we ignored the science. When it hot worse we began chasing the ones who were better resourced or prepared. We sent sick and frail older people back to care homes WITH the virus in order to save the NHS?? Our government lied about that, they lied about having enough PPE, they were warned of this. They locked down regions with little logic other than it will stop the spread... locking up active criminals will reduce crime... until they get let out again. There has been no leadership. Our own ministers flouted the rules and never got sacked because they aren't accountable and their media backers twist the news... so, yes, I would say you have a skewed view of the situation in the UK... however, maybe I need perspective because I've heard it's bad or worse elsewhere.. my bad.
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#28

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:20 pm

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that there should be no accountability. I'm only suggesting that accountability in situations of these kinds of problems (wicked, uncertain, ill-structured) are handled (1) by the voice, not violence and (2) address individuals rather than abstract "governments".

tokeless wrote: That's whataboutery Richard.. if you're starving in country A, it doesn't help being told people in country B are starving too or worse than you.


If 180+ countries suddenly face an unprecedented food shortage resulting in starving people all around the world, then it absolutely does help to share information and strategies about how countries B, C, D, and E are trying to navigate the global crisis. Whataboutery is useful.

In other words, whataboutery is a perfectly acceptable way to evaluate and compare responses to the problem. The idea that you, me, or any other person...had we been in charge...would have not made many of the same mistakes is rubbish.

Each country has it own plans to address pandemics or large scale public health issues. Mine happens to be the UK who were told 4 years earlier you aren't prepared and here's what you need to do to be so.. ignored. That is negligent.


Sure, sure...the UK and politicians in 180+ other countries have used the same line. The entire world was warned 4 years ago. Which countries were prepared? None of them, right tokeless? Not Yemen, not Canada, not Colombia, not the UK, not the USA. No country was prepared and the "we didn't prepare" is just hogwash. You can't adequately prepare for Black Swans tokeless. Want evidence? Use the whataboutery meter that works so well.

Other European countries acted earlier than us because we ignored the science.


This is whataboutery tokeless. I thought you don't wish to use whataboutery?

I'm okay with it, except that you are cherry-picking what other European countries did better than the UK while ignoring what they did worse. Again 180+ countries and they all made mistakes.

We sent sick and frail older people back to care homes WITH the virus in order to save the NHS?? Our government lied about that, they lied about having enough PPE, they were warned of this. They locked down regions with little logic other than it will stop the spread... locking up active criminals will reduce crime... until they get let out again. There has been no leadership. Our own ministers flouted the rules and never got sacked because they aren't accountable and their media backers twist the news... so, yes, I would say you have a skewed view of the situation in the UK...


The same things are going on everywhere tokeless. It's a crisis. People don't make perfect decisions under uncertain conditions and yes people die from some of those decisions. It's not unique to the UK, nor is the UK anywhere at the top of the list of being the worst off.
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#29

Postby various artist » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:54 pm

tokeless wrote:Would you consider the right to privacy an essential liberty. The right to not have my government snooping on my conversations without legal oversight? I would, but we are told we need to be protected from our enemies, the terrorists.. have you seen some of the modern definitions of terrorists and terrorism? They include actions taken against the government?? What, like peaceful protest? Often distraction masks legislation and avoids scrutiny. In the UK we are seeing a lurch to the right, with increased xenophobia and finger pointing to migrants as the cause of service shortage when in reality they were cut. Social division is a dangerous path as you see also in the US. We can play it down and say what losses etc.. until it's gone you don't realise it's importance. Strange times and Brexit hasn't landed yet. Public unrest is a high possibility when the anger rises.

How is this "lurch to the right" manifesting itself to you in the UK? By people voting for ukip and being anti-EU?
But that was mostly a perfectly understandable reaction to the attempt of all the other politcal parties and mainstream media at stifling the debate about the effects of mass uncontrolled immigration and dismissing reasonable concerns of ordinary people as just "racism".

Is increased survellience and anti-terrorism laws a lurch to the far right or to the far left???

Politics in the U.S has become increasingly polarised in both directions thanks to the rise of 'social justice' movements (eg BLM, moderm feminists, trans activists) going way too far and stoking up division. Now you get true liberal minded people being branded as fascists and racists and having their careers ruined by left-wing mob 'justice'. You are obviously going to get a backlash against that from (real)liberal, fair-minded people. Hardly a lurch to the right.
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