Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:I think now is the time for you and your neighbors to voluntarily sacrifice a few freedoms
Yeah.
Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:I think now is the time for you and your neighbors to voluntarily sacrifice a few freedoms
quietvoice wrote:Yeah.
Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:quietvoice wrote:Yeah.
For full context...
"I think now is the time for you and your neighbors to voluntarily sacrifice a few freedoms to help your community. But, then again, I'm not sure what you are dealing with. Is the military marching down your streets? Are you no longer allowed freedom of speech? Has your right to vote been repealed? Tell me, what freedoms have you lost that you fear will never return?"
Above is what I wrote in context.
Again, what freedoms have you or anyone else lost that will never return? Freedom of speech? Military imposing curfews? Right to vote repealed?
Nope.
It has now been roughly 6 months since the original message. And what happened during this time? Was there some tyrannical national, federal shutdown, stripping everyone of individual liberties and freedom? Nope.
What we have seen is leaders at the state and local levels empowered at the national level to handle the issue. And what happened? Some have done a good job, balancing measures with reason. They will probably be reelected. Others have shown a more tyrannical side. They, in theory, by the power of the voters should not be reelected.
Time for a revolution? Nope. You don't like how your local leadership is handling the coronavirus, go vote.
quietvoice wrote:Whatever you say, Richard.
Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:In your country, what freedoms have you permanently lost, because of government mandates in response to the virus?
Maybe we can point to 2-3 countries that did absolutely nothing, that imposed no rules to minimize the spread of the virus.
the USA is largely open for business, being run state by state.
Candid wrote:In the UK I think we now have to assume it's permanent...We have no say in this.
Since then lots of small businesses have gone to the wall and bigger ones have shut down branches. Our economy is in chaos and all sorts of Bad Stuff is on the increase: poverty, domestic violence, mental illness.
It also leads the world in infections, deaths, and of course, riots in the streets.
Candid wrote:I'm not asking for violence and I doubt quietvoice is, either.
However, violence is being done to citizens all over the world, with major curbs on our freedom to 'protect' us.
I'd rather take my chances ... if I were allowed to.
Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:tokeless wrote: Look at the world pre and post 9/11... the patriot act and the changes contained within it.
I agree with you.
My honest question, what “essential liberties” were taken away or restricted post 9/11?
My answer. I’m not entirely sure, because whatever “essential liberties” were lost it appears to be not very transparent. I’m not a fan of the FISA court and I do believe there are some issues that need to be addressed, but the idea we even know about FISA and that we know about the Patriot act is evidence that there is some oversight.
I personally have not experienced the loss of any “essential liberties” since 9/11. Have you? Sure, flying is a bit more of a pain, it costs a bit more and you need to arrive at the airport a little earlier, but no “essential liberties” have been sacrificed to my knowledge.
And I know there are some rare issues with people caught up in the “no fly” list debacle, but that too is brought out in the media and adjudicated in the courts.
tokeless wrote:Would you consider the right to privacy an essential liberty.
Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:tokeless wrote:Would you consider the right to privacy an essential liberty.
How did COVID impact that liberty in the UK?
Post 9/11 we continue to battle that issue, balancing the right to privacy with the safety of the public. In the USA it is a 4th amendment issue argued in the courts. To my knowledge, COVID has not pushed that needle one direction or another.
tokeless wrote:I guess I jumped in to the discussion so need to clarify my point. I guess it's for me at least about accountability for the government's actions, in this case gross incompetence.
tokeless wrote: That's whataboutery Richard.. if you're starving in country A, it doesn't help being told people in country B are starving too or worse than you.
Each country has it own plans to address pandemics or large scale public health issues. Mine happens to be the UK who were told 4 years earlier you aren't prepared and here's what you need to do to be so.. ignored. That is negligent.
Other European countries acted earlier than us because we ignored the science.
We sent sick and frail older people back to care homes WITH the virus in order to save the NHS?? Our government lied about that, they lied about having enough PPE, they were warned of this. They locked down regions with little logic other than it will stop the spread... locking up active criminals will reduce crime... until they get let out again. There has been no leadership. Our own ministers flouted the rules and never got sacked because they aren't accountable and their media backers twist the news... so, yes, I would say you have a skewed view of the situation in the UK...
tokeless wrote:Would you consider the right to privacy an essential liberty. The right to not have my government snooping on my conversations without legal oversight? I would, but we are told we need to be protected from our enemies, the terrorists.. have you seen some of the modern definitions of terrorists and terrorism? They include actions taken against the government?? What, like peaceful protest? Often distraction masks legislation and avoids scrutiny. In the UK we are seeing a lurch to the right, with increased xenophobia and finger pointing to migrants as the cause of service shortage when in reality they were cut. Social division is a dangerous path as you see also in the US. We can play it down and say what losses etc.. until it's gone you don't realise it's importance. Strange times and Brexit hasn't landed yet. Public unrest is a high possibility when the anger rises.