Maybe someone can relate?

#60

Postby Candid » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:44 am

1111 'likes', Richard!

There are people who would make something of that.

The sun has broken through again here in SE England, after yesterday's rain.

Have a nice day, everyone.
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#61

Postby TMT » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:02 am

Richard it's tmt not tnt, and candid what's with the sarcastic remark about the symptoms, have you felt cold and hot flashes, feverish, bloated, bite your teeth till morning all at the same time, why can't you guys make your points without being arrogant and disrespectful, oh it's because you feel you are dealing with OPs and you don't have to show any courtesy, i believe you guys won't behave like that on an academic environment or platform. Why didn't you go there and show your prowess, Your lack of courtesy was one of the reason for this thread and not your convictions I recall.
You see you are the reason why OPs become defensive because when they open up about they are ridiculed, stigmatized, stereotyped "I don't know how you think" and disrespected.
When you look closely, we are not far apart when we all acknowledge that there is an irritating, discomforting and abnormal feeling after one quits MJ irrespective of whether it is mental or physiological, and there is a way to deal with it. It doesn't matter how you deal with it if at the end you become a drug free and better person does it? All our hypothesis and convictions may be proven or refuted with new findings right? Time and commitment is all that matters right? It's been motivating and inspirational thank you for your contributions, let's show more courtesy, let's help make the world more tolerant please.
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#62

Postby tokeless » Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:43 pm

Hi TMT, I think in fairness if you look across a lot of the threads the abusive remarks and name calling has been directed at us, "The toxic trio" I think one was. We are all human and I think I probably bite quicker and more often than Candid or Richard. I also think I can honestly say our intentions have only ever been genuine and we offer advice freely and without prejudice but also challenge thoughts when needed because often people get stuck and that can help. The reaction doesn't always reflect the intention but personally I give it free and have no expectations of others taking it up or agreeing.. that's a choice. I also feel I have learned a lot from the other two and value their knowledge and insights. Hope all is going well with you and your recovery.
Best wishes
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#63

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:29 am

Candid wrote:1111 'likes', Richard!

The sun has broken through again here in SE England, after yesterday's rain.


I will add it to my credentials.

Sunny here in China as well. A five day holiday starts tomorrow and the government is encouraging travel to help the economy. I guess we will see what happens.
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#64

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:16 am

TMT wrote: It doesn't matter how you deal with it if at the end you become a drug free and better person does it? All our hypothesis and convictions may be proven or refuted with new findings right? Time and commitment is all that matters right? It's been motivating and inspirational thank you for your contributions, let's show more courtesy, let's help make the world more tolerant please.


No, no, and no.

-1- TMT, whatever it is that you believe it means to be a "better person" it is probably different than what it means to me. And the ends don't justify the means. The how definitely matters. If you actually thought that the how didn't matter, then you wouldn't be in here promoting your particular brand of how.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate you promoting your brand of how, but I submit that all "hows" are not created equal.

-2- Some hypotheses and convictions cannot be proven wrong. The problem is that we just do not know which ones. For example, you might believe that there is life after death and another person might believe in the opposite. You both can't be correct. One of your convictions is true.

-3- If you believe the discussion in this thread shows a lack of tolerance, my advice is for you to go out into the world and learn more on what intolerance actually means. The benefit of public discourse as a form of argumentation is that we can share our opinions honestly. The very issue with the "tolerance police" is their hypocrisy.

You might not realize this yet TNT, but a certain level of what you wisht to label as a "lack of courtesy" or a discussion that "offends" or puts someone on the "defensive" is actually healthy and is a necessary ingredient in conceptual change. The ability to modify our beliefs requires a bit of emotional discomfort (cognitive dissonance).
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#65

Postby Candid » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:51 am

TMT wrote:... and candid what's with the sarcastic remark about the symptoms


Direct, not sarcastic.

have you felt cold and hot flashes, feverish, bloated, bite your teeth till morning


Three out of four, yes. That's why I mentioned the menopause. Actually, it might be four. Do you mean teeth chattering? I don't know how else I could bite my own teeth, or anyone else's for that matter.

i believe you guys won't behave like that on an academic environment or platform.


What would I say if I were your doctor?

"Well, those symptoms are only to be expected if you tried marijuana just once more than three years ago. It's baffling how it works. We've been looking for a cure for quite a while now but as you've discovered, there isn't one. The only thing that helps in any way is to get on an internet forum, list your symptoms, and ask other people whether this is normal, and how long it can be expected to last. They will list some things you haven't even thought of as symptoms and you'll realise you have those, too. If you spend long enough on any given forum, you'll know it's pointless looking for a cure.
"Obviously anyone who's never tried marijuana in its strongest form won't know what they're talking about. I've even heard of some who have tried it, and lived with it for quite some time, and they suggest you simply accept that you can't turn back the clock, but stop going on about it and live your life as a non-smoker!! Really, the nerve!
"It's quite incredible to the academic/medical community that someone could suggest this. If they aren't actually living with post-acute effects they ought to shut the hell up, right? But we can't stop them, and obviously when we persuade doctors to "try it, you might like it", naturally we lose them. It's Catch-22, really. Either they can't stop once they've started and are lost to academia for ever, or they give it up successfully and are ineligible to advise anyone. That's how it works, so I'm afraid you're stuck with it for life."


we are not far apart when we all acknowledge that there is an irritating, discomforting and abnormal feeling after one quits MJ irrespective of whether it is mental or physiological, and there is a way to deal with it.


Oh! Is there?

Well, best not write about it here. No one in the grip of it can be expected to appreciate what you've learned. If you're telling them through a haze of mj smoke and brain fog, maybe. But then they'll get a stomach ache or a brain pain or they'll find themselves biting their own teeth, and I don't know, doc, things just aren't the same as when I was a teenager...

It doesn't matter how you deal with it if at the end you become a drug free and better person does it?


I wouldn't know. How could I possibly know? Either I'm a drug-taker or I'm not, and either way I'm ineligible to comment. To be eligible I'd have to be in that half-way hell known as PAWS, and why should anyone listen to me then?

let's show more courtesy, let's help make the world more tolerant please.


Yes, that sort of thing makes the wheels go round, doesn't it? Just as long as no one here is talking out of turn or trying to be funny.
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#66

Postby TMT » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:03 am

1. I believe being off weed makes me a better person, trying to learn more about the world improves me in all ways, you believe differently?
2. I'm not promoting anything but sharing my experience hoping to encourage others and gain insight, I never knew this was a promotion competition.
3. Im not the only one that pointed out your arrogance, nihilism, harshness or lack of respect, check the thread.
4. There are more polite ways to argue and share your opinions in public discuss other than undermining or stereotyping other participants, I guess as a psychologist you just can't help it?
5. "we are not far apart when we all acknowledge that there is an irritating, discomforting and abnormal feeling after one quits MJ irrespective of whether it is mental or physiological, and there is a way to deal with it". You can't dispute this right, then let's have your remedy simple.
6. Candid, "strain around the face" what ever that means, " bite my own teeth", hahaha funny, menopause is mental not physiological, let's have fun.
7. Don't get me wrong English and China, I'm learning a great deal here, it's just difficult learning with an unfriendly tutor or where a class mate makes fun of you.
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#67

Postby SparkleFly12 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:25 pm

tokeless wrote:Hi TMT, I think in fairness if you look across a lot of the threads the abusive remarks and name calling has been directed at us, "The toxic trio" I think one was. We are all human and I think I probably bite quicker and more often than Candid or Richard. I also think I can honestly say our intentions have only ever been genuine and we offer advice freely and without prejudice but also challenge thoughts when needed because often people get stuck and that can help. The reaction doesn't always reflect the intention but personally I give it free and have no expectations of others taking it up or agreeing.. that's a choice. I also feel I have learned a lot from the other two and value their knowledge and insights. Hope all is going well with you and your recovery.
Best wishes


fwiw tokeless, Ive always found you to be very respectful and easy to be around. you deliver your messages without spite or undue sarcasm. Thanks.
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#68

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Fri May 01, 2020 2:09 am

TMT wrote:1. I believe being off weed makes me a better person, trying to learn more about the world improves me in all ways, you believe differently?


I agree with the above as a solid, positive self-concept. I don't believe it makes a person better or worse. Maybe it is because my belief is focused less on how the person personally benefits from their behaviors versus how their behaviors impact others. Still, I understand the intentions that underly your belief as a path towards being a "better person".

3. Im not the only one that pointed out your arrogance, nihilism, harshness or lack of respect, check the thread. 4. There are more polite ways to argue and share your opinions in public discuss other than undermining or stereotyping other participants, I guess as a psychologist you just can't help it?


I can help it, but there is no need for me to change. You are the one that paints the picture and tries to cast the above as a negative in life. In other words, you have a problem with how I communicate. I get that. You have a problem. How is that working out for you?

I mean, there is no way that I'm the only person that you have a problem with how they communicate. If how I communicate is a problem for you, I can only imagine the horror of the world in which you have chosen to live. My goodness, the world must be an awful, horrific, intolerant, discourteous hell hole if how I communicate presents a problem for you.

5. "we are not far apart when we all acknowledge that there is an irritating, discomforting and abnormal feeling after one quits MJ irrespective of whether it is mental or physiological, and there is a way to deal with it". You can't dispute this right, then let's have your remedy simple.


Stop teaching people to believe that because they smoked THC for 3 months that they now qualify for a lifetime "victim" or "survivor" card. It is not a helpful belief.

Time and commitment becomes a juicy belief, it becomes a lifestyle. For many people it becomes a badge that they wear and can't give up.

How about you TMT, when will you give up the "PAWS" badge or is it something that once you have earned the badge you are in the club for life?
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#69

Postby TMT » Fri May 01, 2020 6:58 am

"How about you TMT, when will you give up the "PAWS" badge or is it something that once you have earned the badge you are in the club for life?" Almost there.
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#70

Postby PAWSsurvivor » Sat May 02, 2020 5:12 pm

Richard, so you have an educational psychology degree? And a workforce development degree?

I have no idea why you are commenting on everyone's addictions, unless you are suffering from one. Feel free to let us know why you are offering all the unsolicited advice.

I'm not identifying as a permanent victim. In fact I've worked hard to defeat this affliction. Hard sometimes meaning diet, exercise, and sometimes knowing when to rest. Whatever I'm doing, or even if it's just time at work, things are getting better.

The only ones in my life who know about what I've been going through are my Doctors, my girlfriend, and family. I've kept it hidden as much as i can.

I have not even missed a single day of work. I powered through it all. God knows I how i made it through all that.

But listen, I found this forum because I had spent months trying to figure out what was happening with me. You simply have no idea what this condition is like. And deny it all you will, it's true that you haven't suffered from it and therefore you lose some authority in this conversation, especially without a medical background. Who would I be to just drop in on a Cancer recovery forum and pretend to understand the condition? I've never had cancer, nor do I have any experience with it. I'll leave that conversation for people more qualified, especially because I don't have any relevant background either personally or professionally.

I won't relist all my symptoms. It's pretty pointless to keep relisting them as I'm on the mend. You can go read them. It's insane to think PAWS is made up. Or a figment of someone's imagination. Double vision, and hallucinations, brain zaps, disassociation and much more are not just a product of my anxiety. My neurotransmitters have been scrambled, and they are rebalancing. I can refer books to you if that interests you. I've read all I can to understand this condition. Also my Medical Doctors could tell you. One even had to prescribe anti-hallucigens for one of his patients.

I'll say it again. Go ask my Medical Doctor if you disagree. He has a degree by the way in Medicine. Something neither of us have.

Someone here was speaking about my own "Attention getting post". Beleive what you will, but no. I'm posting for my own self therapy and so others can understand what's happening to them. In my day to day life I barely even use social media at all and I live a quiet life primarily, spending my time reading, exercising alone, and playing guitar. Writing is one of the most powerful forms of therapy. And I express myself as someone who is healing. I am a survivor. But that's not all I am. It's just who I am around here. If I wanted attention I'd be posting daily. Why don't we all go and check each other's daily post counts.

Please note I don't discourage people about their healing timelines. If someone gets out of their PAWS hole in 3 month or 1 month, great. I would not wish the pain and suffering I've gone through on my worst enemy. And I'm happy to see all this end. Go to the Benzo Buddies forum. They take 5-10 years sometimes with their withdrawl. And they are bed-ridden for years sometimes. Weed PAWS is easy in comparison and non-debilitating it seems for the most part. PAWS is not formally documented at all because weed is a "softer" illicit drug, and because it's been illegal for so long the research hasn't been done. It's simply not being looked into by the science community, at least not in an intense manner. I attended a lecture from a Scientist at my local University studying cannabis after my ordeal began. He spoke of long term consequences, warned of cold turkey withdrawls, and said there is no safe dose because no one understands the plant completely. There's enough evidence and anecdotes to suggest a withdrawl can happen like with any other substance that's abused. Why woudn't it be any different from Alcohol, Caffeine, Stimulants, Hard Drugs etc? Wish that lecture had came along before I began experimenting.

I don't need friendship on a forum. I intentionally take breaks from these websites, only checking in when I need a boost. But support is helpful when a wave hits or when I miss feeling as good as I used to. I thought that's what these forums were for. For support. Not to tell someone that their symptoms are a result of their "thinking patterns" and they are just hypochondriacs. I

Of course we need to calm our anxiety. But that won't come from denying what the underlining issue is. In fact it's empowering. Go read "Brain on Fire". The lady opens the book with a dedication "Dedicated to all those suffering without a Diagnosis". Suffering an affliction without a diagnosis is awful, because you live in dread of what is happening, and what could happen next. You are paranoid, because you always ask yourself "What does this new symptom mean?" Now that I know what PAWS is all I need to know is time will cure me. The knowledge allows me to calm down. Wish I had known this when I was in full blown withdrawl, walking around nauseous disassociated. Had I been told I was just "making all this up" with some sort of denial syndrome, what path would that had taken be down?

Here's my unsolicited advice: Good therapists listen and show compassion, and offer advice only when asked. And guide people with their reflective thinking rather than telling people how to think.

And If I don't fully heal thats ok too. I'm glad there will be people around to listen when I have harder days. People though who acknowledge the truth of what I've been through.

As for my life. It continues. I lift 5 days a week, run or jog as well. All my vitality is coming back. I have my job, and my relationships and the weather is nice. I love my life, and I'm glad I'm getting closer to who I was before this all began. So I look forward to the day when I'm out of this forum. But I won't leave without leaving something productive. Anecdotes saved me when I was depressed. So I will continue leave mine. They will be optimistic. 1 Month intervals seem reasonable. And I won't let people deny the truth of what can happen when Cannabis is either abused, or is incompatible with someone's physiology.

PS. Months ago I would not have had the energy to debate this at all. Now I can. A good sign of healing as well.

I'm staying off this forum for the next week or so It's started to become worse than the condition I have. Have a good day.
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#71

Postby Candid » Sat May 02, 2020 5:31 pm

PAWSsurvivor wrote:PAWS is not formally documented at all because weed is a "softer" illicit drug, and because it's been illegal for so long the research hasn't been done. It's simply not being looked into by the science community, at least not in an intense manner.


Nux vomica, the Arnica of recovery from addiction: an exploratory study of the use of homeopathy in the reduction of post–acute withdrawal syndrome in addiction …
L Butehorn, P Gumz, L Randolph - Homoeopathic Links, 2015

Post–Acute Withdrawal Syndrome, Relapse Prevention, and Homeopathy
L Butehorn - Alternative and Complementary Therapies, 2017

Amantadine reduces persistent fatigue during post-acute withdrawal phase in methamphetamine abstained individuals: A randomized placebo-controlled trial
A Modarresi, K Eslami, L Kouti… - Journal of Substance …, 2018

TT Gorski, M Miller - 1986 - mohave.edu
… Objective 1.7 Understand the stages of recovery. Competency 2 Understand and recognize
Post-Acute Withdrawal. Objective 2.1 Recognize and respond to symptoms of Post-Acute
Withdrawal.

Focus: Addiction: Relapse Prevention and the Five Rules of Recovery
SM Melemis - The Yale journal of biology and medicine, 2015

Conceptualizations of relapse: a summary of psychological and psychobiological models
GJ Connors, SA Maisto, DM Donovan - Addiction, 1996 - Wiley Online Library

Post-acute withdrawal syndrome (Gorski & Miller, 1979) Gorski & Miller define relapse as a
process that occurs within the patient which manifests itself in a progressive pattern of behavior
that allows the symptoms of a disease or illness to become reactivated in a person that …

Post–Acute Withdrawal Syndrome, Relapse Prevention, and Homeopathy
L Butehorn - Alternative and Complementary Therapies, 2017

What predicts relapse? Prospective testing of antecedent models
WR Miller, VS Westerberg, RJ Harris, JS Tonigan - Addiction, 1996

Miller (1982), for example, listed 37 sequential ªwarning signsº of relapse that they …
Cited by 499 Related articles All 6 versions Web of Science: 171

Addiction: Relapse Prevention and the Five Rules of Recovery
SM Melemis - The Yale journal of biology and medicine, 2015

and on, and on...
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#72

Postby Candid » Sat May 02, 2020 5:37 pm

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#73

Postby tokeless » Sat May 02, 2020 6:46 pm

Also my Medical Doctors could tell you. One even had to prescribe anti-hallucigens for one of his patients.

I'm calling BS unless you name them. Antipsychotics exist and perhaps you mistook them during your rant. It's not a debate because a debate involves hearing more sides that just your own rant. Anyway, name them please.
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#74

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon May 04, 2020 9:48 am

PAWSsurvivor wrote:Richard, so you have an educational psychology degree? And a workforce development degree?

And deny it all you will, it's true that you haven't suffered from it and therefore you lose some authority in this conversation, especially without a medical background.


First, it is interesting how you fail to acknowledge that a degree in educational psychology adds authority to this conversation. How convenient.

Second, if you didn’t find any medical background in your search then you didn’t look hard enough.

You used THC for 3 months. Your brain did not suffer the damage that you wish to believe. Whatever symptoms you have experienced the causes are more likely related to fear and anxiety induced stress. Your issues are primarily psychological.
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