Living and the future

Postby wickthetrick » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:23 am

Hey, I've been thinking about my future and life a lot recently and I want a broader view of this because the more I think about it the worse it becomes.

Everyone will have to get a job in order to survive. Perhaps you like your job or perhaps you don't but you NEED it to survive. There are other ways obviously to make a living but that takes a lot of effort and there is no guarantee you will succeed. It is a lot easier to fail. No one had a choice of the family they were born with, I think of it as a lucky dip. If your parents have a lot of money and are able to guide you, you are way ahead of everyone else. I'm fortunate enough to have a family which can provide for themselves. It's not fair though, the family's that are just able to get by won't be able to keep up with everyone who has more money. You have no choice over your appearance, your stuck with what you have. You can be born smart, average or you can be born dumb. It is really unfair, if anyone had a choice they'd obviously pick a kind family, lots of money, family is able to guide you, to be smart and to have good looks. Am I wrong?

I know it isn't all negatives though because there had been times in my life where this wasn't so prominent where I was more focused or was enjoying myself. But that's only sometimes. Also, others have lived fulfilled lives and seem okay so there is that. My point is that you have to put in so so much effort with no guarantee of success. I can't arsed... I'm not sure if that makes stupid or lazy but that is the truth for me. I don't even want to be happy, I just want to have the motivation and will to just get on with it.

I feel like I'm far behind everyone else, I've got so many problems. How do people do it, to get up every morning and carry on? Is there some secret I don't know about or some sh** or is it really all this difficult. Is this what its like until you die? everyone has just endured all of this? I think I want to do more, but if that is the price I'm not sure if I could handle it. All of this just isn't worth it to me, do you get what I'm saying?
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#1

Postby Candid » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:30 am

You've got internet, power, a roof over your head, food and clean water.

I suggest you consider saving for a trip to a third world country. It will give you a perspective that appears to be missing.
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#2

Postby wickthetrick » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:06 am

Hey Candid, I don't think I am taking for granted of what I have. I am very grateful for what I have and I wrote it above... I know I have internet, power, a roof over my head, food and clean water. Do you think I'm way over my head or something? I was being genuine with my question
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#3

Postby Candid » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:19 am

Let's take them in order.

How do people do it, to get up every morning and carry on?


What's the alternative? Would you prefer to stay in bed all day every day?

Is there some secret I don't know about


As far as I can tell, from my vantage point of your grandmother's age, it's finding what matters to you, what you enjoy doing. That way you meet lots of people who share your interest or passion, and life becomes fun.

I read a lot of autobiographies. It's too late for me to be a Gandhi or a Dawkins, but not for you.

OR you can have children as a reason to go on. That's what most people do. Your parents and mine, for instance.

Is this what its like until you die? everyone has just endured all of this?


Yes. And at this point you might be ready for the work of David Benatar, who posits that every human life consists of more misery than happiness, getting progressively worse as time passes, and that therefore it's a bad thing to be making more people.

Given the fact that so many of the world's people are now starving, and we're losing rainforest at a frightening rate, and we're about to enter global recession on an unprecedented scale, I'm inclined to agree with him.
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#4

Postby wickthetrick » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:58 am

Yes, staying in bed all day sometimes seems better than getting up. Not all the time, sometimes. How do you do it? are you fine with all of your decisions you make before you get up? I think I like that about the doing something you enjoy with others to have fun. That's partially dependant on other people? I don't think I would like to be a Gandhi or a Dawkins. I don't know what I want. There are always complications, or its hard to make the best decision.

Yeah I agree there are lots of different problems, and there always has been. Even in well developed countries, there are millions of problems. big and small. I've walked down the street and have seen tons of different problems. Homeless men and women, children, young adults...

How come you didn't agree with this mans (David Benatar) work before?
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#5

Postby tokeless » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:29 am

You can be born smart, average or you can be born dumb.

Really? When we're born we are totally dependent on others for everything in order to thrive or survive. The baby isn't smart or dumb. How that child is nurtured will influence the outcomes and it isn't necessarily money that determines the outcome. Some incredibly smart people have come from poor backgrounds and many dumb from rich.. Trump, GW Bush come to mind but that's my bias.
I consider myself as intelligent but no better than anyone else (excluding morals, values and behaviours) as we are all humans and influenced by circumstance and chances in life.
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#6

Postby Candid » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:50 am

wickthetrick wrote:are you fine with all of your decisions you make before you get up?


I find it hard to stay in bed once I'm awake, and I need coffee + cigarette before I do anything else, so 'on waking' isn't a time I make decisions. Overall I'm happy with choices I've made over the decades.

I think I like that about the doing something you enjoy with others to have fun. That's partially dependant on other people?


I don't think so. My interests have led me to people I wouldn't otherwise have met, and I concur with whoever it was who said: "The secret to life is other people."

If you wade through a page or three of posts by desperate788, you'll see what I mean. He has no interest in anyone but himself so the guy's imploding.

There are always complications, or its hard to make the best decision.


I feel sorry for people who have no interests beyond popular culture. My own interests have been my saviours in the dark times and remain the greatest source of my joy. "Complications" and obstacles tend to melt away when you know what you want.

How come you didn't agree with this mans (David Benatar) work before?


You mean in my first answer here? I agreed with him as soon as I heard his talk with Sam Harris, https://samharris.org/podcasts/107-life ... th-living/ That was posted here by another member a long time ago.

I don't say much in first response because a lot of folks who come here write one post and vanish.
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#7

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:04 pm

wickthetrick wrote: It's not fair though, the family's that are just able to get by won't be able to keep up with everyone who has more money. You have no choice over your appearance, your stuck with what you have.

I feel like I'm far behind everyone else, I've got so many problems. How do people do it, to get up every morning and carry on?


Fair? Reframe and celebrate the "unfairness" as the very thing that provides meaning.

Do you really think that you would enjoy a strictly fair universe? That would give life meaning? That would provide you comfort or happiness?

So your ideal universe is one where everyone has the same appearance, the same intellect, and the same resources independent of effort? In your universe, there exists no such thing as hurricanes, droughts, or anything outside of human control that might impact what is "fair"? You want there to be no differences in consequences for people making different decisions in life? Are you saying that in your universe there should be no morals or ethics, because decisions are 100% predetermined by either biology or the circumstances?

Yes, the universe is dynamic and this creates an "unfair" existence. So what to you do about it? Sulk around and curse the universe? Or celebrate how it is this very "unfairness" that allows you to make choices in life, that helps guide you towards different paths.

Unfortunately the current climate is for people wanting to destroy rather than build. They bemoan the "unfair" and would rather tear down than build up. But, that is a different topic.
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#8

Postby wickthetrick » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:27 pm

Hey tokeless and Richard.

I agree that a newborn is not smart nor dumb. They are totally dependent on their parents. I've even read that infants cry trigger a response from their parents nervous system and parents have adapted to become easily attached to their child. The child is equipped with a set of tools to survive from the very beginning. I think it is when they start getting older their circumstances growing up will largely affect they're future. This is just off the top of my head but if you look at 100 over the course of their lives you'd see a difference. 50 were born into an upper class family and 50 were born into a lower class family. I think that the upper class would thrive simply because of the situation they were born with. I don't think they'd want to change where they were placed because why would they? They are doing great. The lower class wouldn't do as well simply because of the situation they had no control over. This doesn't make their lives perfe As you said, some of the most successful people were born in lower class family's and have done really well for themselves so that shows its possible. But the large majority are not statistically going to do as well because they do not have the same foundation as the upper class. That's what I think at this point in time.

I think I would enjoy a fair universe. If everyone was born into a fair universe we'd be in a totally different situation, I think it would give us a new meaning to life. I'm not sure if it would provide happiness but I think there would be a lot more comfort for the masses. I don't think everyone should have the same appearance, I think people should get a choice of how they want to look. I want there to be differences as much as everyone else, I don't think I get to choose what other people want or don't want. That is totally up to them and is fine. I don't want everyone else to be exactly like me.

Aren't people making their decisions to make their situation more fair or to have more enjoyment? Aren't we all striving to help our own situation? I don't think anyone would choose to have hurricanes. It just makes it a lot more complicated for them. If I had a hurricane tear through my house, I would go homeless, lose all of my belongings and I'd struggle for a long time. It wouldn't be fun at all. Perhaps i'd gain a new perspective to make me all the wiser. I'm not sure with what I'd gain. I think it is the same with droughts or anything outside of their control. It takes up more effort, makes more complications. I don't think there is an issue talking about how it is unfair and I don't want to tear down or destroy anything. I'm not sure what I want to do about it. How you are using unfairness to provide you with a source of motivation is something I just don't understand. I also don't want to tear down or destroy anything.
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#9

Postby Candid » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:46 am

wickthetrick wrote:I've even read that infants cry trigger a response from their parents nervous system and parents have adapted to become easily attached to their child. The child is equipped with a set of tools to survive from the very beginning.


Yes, that's the mainstream narrative which ignores the alternate narrative in which babies are punished or ignored when they cry, and the 'attachment' is based on abuse, neglect, or both. There are parents who routinely molest or batter their own infants until the child is dead.

I believe you're better off born to adoring parents without two pennies to rub together than to an upper-class family who believe children should be seen and not heard, and get the stick out for any minor infraction.

Financial security is a great help, of course, but emotional security matters more. For one thing, it provides a strong identity, a child who knows she or he is a good and competent person with the confidence to aim high and the resilience to understand the knock-backs aren't personal.

50 were born into an upper class family and 50 were born into a lower class family. I think that the upper class would thrive simply because of the situation they were born with.


Sure. If you were born to the Queen of England your life's 'work' will be shaking hands with various heads of state, cutting ribbons, and having tame lawyers on call for the times you're caught out indulging in the fruits of sex trafficking. It's certainly a different experience, but not one I've ever fancied.

I don't think they'd want to change where they were placed because why would they?


Plenty of people 'marry down'. Whether they continue to have the support of their families is the luck of the draw.

some of the most successful people were born in lower class family's and have done really well for themselves so that shows its possible. But the large majority are not statistically going to do as well because they do not have the same foundation as the upper class. That's what I think at this point in time.


And at this point you can go either way. You can go on telling yourself the odds are against you, or you can read inspiring stories of people triumphing over adversity, financial and otherwise.

This is "a fair universe": survival of the fittest. Evolution didn't end with Darwin, and if you can handle an update I highly recommend the work of his successor Richard Dawkins. You are NOT "far behind everyone else"; you have all the tools you need to make something fine of your life... except for the most important: the right attitude.

Aren't people making their decisions to make their situation more fair or to have more enjoyment? Aren't we all striving to help our own situation?


A lot of people have found more satisfaction in helping those less fortunate than themselves. Here's something to ponder: https://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/07/534208/

I don't think anyone would choose to have hurricanes.


So you're going to control the weather and distribute the world's income so everyone gets a fair share? I strongly recommend you decide which of these is more important to you and make it your life's work. You might end up being one of those people who everyone called crazy, but who left a great legacy for which the world is truly grateful.

I'm all for thinking big, but in your shoes (and because it seems to matter more to you) I'd aim for distribution of wealth rather than controlling the weather. Hurricanes and tsunamis are no respecters of persons: they just do what they do impartially.

If I had a hurricane tear through my house, I would go homeless, lose all of my belongings and I'd struggle for a long time. It wouldn't be fun at all. Perhaps i'd gain a new perspective to make me all the wiser. I'm not sure with what I'd gain.


I've been through all that, and you're quite right. It was more than 20 years ago and I'm never going to be where I expected to be in my old age, but it certainly does give a new perspective. In my case, it's the ability to stand back and watch it unfold. Somehow I've missed any mention in your posts of a global pandemic in which the poor and disenfranchised are being infected in greater numbers but the world's rulers are not immune. The financial shakedown will be colossal even if the northern hemisphere doesn't see a surge of cases with the onset of winter. "Stand back and watch it unfold" isn't necessaily a position of helplessness; it enables a relaxed perspective that brings clarity.

How you are using unfairness to provide you with a source of motivation is something I just don't understand.


Is it fair that nowadays some people survive to adulthood with the most appalling congenital defects? I'm thinking in particular of Quentin Kenihan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quentin_Kenihan, who didn't have a chance at a normal life but who was happy and successful within his limitations. I knew his parents, and they weren't wealthy by any means.

My message to you is to understand there are things you can control in life and things you can't. What you do with that information is up to you.
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#10

Postby wickthetrick » Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:13 am

Hey Candid, to be honest from reading your response there are just so many things that go into this, I don't really know anything. I've only thought about the tip of the ice berg. I agree with everything you've said and it makes sense to me I think. I like how you did this.

So how exactly do you practice understanding what you can or cannot control? I'd love to think me sitting at my desk for many hours during my past week googling all of this has achieved something, but I don't think it has.

I've noticed that a lot of people in interviews that I've watched say "learn to accept life isn't fair" or whatever they say. I don't think this is clear. I still have a problem. Me knowing it isn't fair doesn't change the feelings that are accompanied by it.

How do you practice acceptance? Do I look into my past and think of all the times I couldn't control certain parts of the situation? Do I walk down, pick out things there I can't control? What do you say to yourself when something like that happens?

I hate how something's are way out of my control and I'll know exactly what has happened or why and still feel the exact same way even though I know all of the above. Every time I say that something is unfair am I just dodging the responsibility for myself?

Oh well
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#11

Postby Candid » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:13 am

wickthetrick wrote:So how exactly do you practice understanding what you can or cannot control?


You can control what you do, say and think. You can't control what anyone else does, says, or thinks. You might be able to influence them. Example is definitely more influential than rhetoric.

Do I look into my past and think of all the times I couldn't control certain parts of the situation?


That doesn't sound like a good idea, tending, as it would, to bad feelings. Better to stay with what's going on NOW, because that's really all you have to work with.

What do you say to yourself when something like that happens?


For me, it's easy to accept what I can't control. I'm an expert shirker-of-responsibility. That doesn't stop me resisting when someone attempts to breach my boundaries. It could be worth googling personal boundaries, if that's an issue for you.

Every time I say that something is unfair am I just dodging the responsibility for myself?


Sounds like it. Without a shift of perception I predict you'll spend a few decades lamenting that you weren't born to wealth, while others for whom life has been less fiscally fair will do whatever it takes to get where they want to go. I don't think you would enjoy that.
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