Marginalised Researchers In Neurology

#240

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:03 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
davidbanner99@ wrote:When Tom states more impaired autistic people are marginalised, do you agree? Yes or no?


..."impaired autistic" people.

So a person can be:

-1- impaired (IQ less than 30/verbal issues).
-2- autistic
-3- autistic and impaired.

That a neurodiversity event is not inclusive of all ranges of IQ, from 0 - 180+ is not because the person is autistic. That the event is not inclusive of all verbal abilities is not because of autism. The events don't intentionally or systemically marginalize the autistic. The event welcomes all people that are autistic.

Those that host neurodiversity events could be more inclusive if they made special accommodations for the impaired, regardless if they have autism. You are conflating the two as if "impaired autistic" is the same as "autistic".

I think it is generally a good idea to try to be more inclusive, and to provide reasonable accommodations for those with disabilities.


I'm afraid that last post seems simply evasive. I've recently noticed a steady pattern here of evading a question by raising another one altogether.
We aren't discussing basketball or how that sport relates to a Neurodiversity event. We are not discussing I.Q. I did try to clarify I.Q. these days is usually a synonym for intelligence.
Really, interpretation of the quotes above is not at all difficult. And you continue to skip by the quote I added, probably because it requires some familiarity with diagnostic criteria.
The people quoted feel the Neurodiversity movement is a mechanism for stereotyped representatives to push genuine autists aside. Most people who identify as Aspergoid very often are a far throw from what Asperger described.
Just because people identify a certain way and do research doesn't mean they actually experienced major disruption. Historically, Asperger's Psychopathy is a pretty serious condition with its diagnostic roots in Schizophrenia:

Last quote Tom Clements:

"The inevitable result of de-medicalising something as serious as autism is that people start to use the condition in much the same way as transgender identities – to achieve a much-vaunted victim status and to boost the self-esteem of the needy and narcissistic. When this happens, the true victims of autism become marginalised."
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#241

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:27 pm

Here"s the quote you wouldn't address:

"It is necessary to more accurately delimit the schizoid group, in-1), from other forms of psychopathies, V-2), from a schizoid type of reaction occurring as a physiological phenomenon within normal variations (for the last group it is desirable to have a term taken not from psychiatry)." Suhareva

The Schizoid group is the same thing Asperger studied. It's usually a clinical condition and in the USSR such children attended special schools. I have many case-study biographies I could upload as an example.
Schizoid type of reaction is a type of personality that reflects Schizoid symptoms but in proportions that don't interfere with school or employment. Under severe stress such people may well suffer the full onset of clinical symptoms.
It was concluded by Suhareva the last group should not be included in clinical psychology.
In the U.S. Asperger Syndrome is most often used to denote the latter group and this is incorrect. It's a view pushed by Steve Silberman and the Neurodiversity Movement yet is quite mistaken.
The solution? I'm working on it but plenty of much better research in 1980s USSR clinics.
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#242

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:59 pm

davidbanner99@ wrote:...the true victims of autism become marginalised.


So now you are a victim? And not only are you a victim but an advocate for other victims of autism?

When you started this thread I was under the impression you wanted those on the spectrum to not be treated as disabled, incapable victims. You want those on the spectrum to be treated as equal contributors to research on autism.

In my opinion, as long as you continue to see yourself and others on the spectrum as victims, it will keep you from focusing on the actual problem. Instead of being a positive influence on the field you will be a negative influence as you try to push this narrative of those on the spectrum as victims.

While others on the spectrum are researching and publishing, operating in the same system as everyone else, participating in the community and having a positive influence on the field of autism, you want to go down the dark, negative path of victimology.

Good luck with that.
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#243

Postby Charlestrict » Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:40 am

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#244

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:20 pm

In the course of the thread, I seem to have discovered other issues. Not wanting to sound like I lack patience.
The other issues I think concern Richard's tendency to block new information at all costs. It's an immediate "No" to new ideas, very much without signs of pondering what is offered by presented data or actual experience. I got to the point where logically, at this point, there is no way or means of effective communication. I included a few quotes by other people to see if their own views might be considered and to try and create some context.
I don't ever believe people should blindly accept or agree with what I might say and disagreement isn't an issue. However, in this case it just seems contradiction has become a virtue in itself. Even in that case, it might be taken more seriously with some quotes or sources supplied.
Very hard work but I guess other people can still read here what might be of interest - if not now, later. Besides it's now very easy for me to discuss this. I was involved with autism forums around 8 years before finally starting to research the issue as a science. Moreover, that is just a small percentage of my overall sphere of interests. I also do research in physics and record music. I try to balance it all out.
My more recent essays I will publish soon but I don't publish all of my research to date. Most of what I write more openly uses comparisons of existing authors.
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#245

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:38 pm

As to essays, well, to be honest, I feel no need to try and prove some particular point. At this stage in my life I now have a very specialised knowledge of this subject. It really makes no odds to me if my research would be understood or not. What I do know is it's constantly developing and solving areas that have baffled existing specialists. Add to that the access I now have to the best research papers and essays unfamiliar to American psychologists.
What really matters is to help those who shared my own experiences and to do this I will operate outside the closed circle of Academia. A bit like Paul Cooijman perhaps.
My latest avenue of exploration is to consider how Schizophrenia might be interpreted a little differently to Bleuler's postulation of the four "A"s. New interpretations I may have.
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#246

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:08 pm

davidbanner99@ wrote:The other issues I think concern Richard's tendency to block new information at all costs.


That is one way to view it. Another way, is to say that David tries to distract from his weak argument by presenting "new information" that is irrelevant, trying to go off on tangents to distract from the topic.

In this sense, it isn't the inadvertent blocking of new information. It is intentionally ignoring the many Red Herrings David uses to try and distract from his weak argument.

David fails to acknowledge the positive research being conducted and published by those with autism on autism, and instead goes on a side tangent about lack of inclusivity of the mentally disabled at neurodiversity events.

I suspect this is why David fails to gain traction with his "research". Whenever pressed he tries to distract.
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#247

Postby davidbanner99@ » Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:48 pm

Actually, there's a big difference in approach. I pretty much never dismiss the thoughts and theories of experts whose essays I read. I use what I might be able to extract of worth, and file in my mind what I disagree with. These latter theories still serve to be classified in quotations. I allow information to float around freely and just use what might help me arrive at conclusions.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Richard adopted a very self-evident position during this discussion. Where do you begin?
(1)Information must be allowed time to process. I never got this far to date by blanking out information.
(2) Emotional motivation simply clouds the path to knowledge.
(3) A discussion should follow a certain course and not chop and change.
(4) Source quotes should be acknowledged as well as provided.

To add a bit more weight to this I still maintain Richard has never read any sources for this area of psychology. I would consider it very probable that includes Hans Asperger or Leo Kanner.
Every time I asked any specific question it tended to be skipped by.
I hope it hasn't been a waste of time for others. Mostly people are these days more concerned with political issues.
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#248

Postby davidbanner99@ » Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:24 pm

Currently busy working on a 1952 HMV radio. It has two shortwave bands - covering 200 metres. The max voltage from the transformer is 300 AC and the wiring connections have to be spot on.
It struck me the rules of radio engineering are precise and not much room for maneouvre. It's a good way too to learn how to not rush ahead and to follow logical rules of application.
Psychology as a science differs because it's very difficult to prove a theory. Asperger was one of many leading investigators and he had his own interpretation in some areas. He was also comparatively ignored by mainstream psychiatry - just one name amongst many. Asperger only became known in English speaking countries due to Wing and Goulde.
My current work will show how Asperger viewed autism per se as different altogether from Schizophrenia.
The question is how did Eugen Bleuler relate autism to the Schizophrenia group? It's a crucial issue.
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#249

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:04 pm

davidbanner99@ wrote:Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Richard adopted a very self-evident position during this discussion.


As did David.

David's self-evident position is that those with autism that conduct research on autism are systemically marginalized by academia.

My self-evident position is that David is incorrect.

To that end I have provided evidence that those on the spectrum do conduct research, publish, and are editors.

What evidence has David submitted? Only a hand selected short list of researchers that he assumes are not on the spectrum. He admits he has know way of knowing.

All of the rest has been David offering up walls of text as Red Herrings, trying to distract from his inability to show even a single case of a person on the spectrum having their research marginalized. His last two responses are great examples.

Show us...show the readers a single example of an autistic researcher that submitted research and that research was rejected based primarily on the grounds that they were autistic. A single example David.

Let's start with your work. Which research paper did you submit to which academic journal and they told you that they were choosing to pass based not on the fact the work did not pass peer review, but on the fact that you are autistic? Your case might be at least some proof.

Here are a list of the major journals recognized by the Autism Science Foundation...

https://autismsciencefoundation.org/wha ... -journals/

Which of these journals did you submit your research to and they rejected that work based on you having autism? If not these journals, which one?
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#250

Postby davidbanner99@ » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:42 pm

I loved that one point about taking a position the author is wrong. I must admit I wonder how many are convinced by such a tactic. I could probably join a marine biology forum and continue to assert the members are wrong. Even not knowing certain areas of marine biology.
Dear readers (if there any masochists still here), I never actually stated autistic researchers were banned from contributing. Myself (and Tom quoted earlier) used the term "marginalised". In both mine and Tom's examples this meant such people were neither represented, by the so-called Neurodiversity Movement, nor have had any imput thus far to understanding clinical disorders.
This I showed to be a fair point by listing by name the core psychiatrists whose imput shaped the DSM.
Does Richard know who these people are and their nationality?Watch him skip by that question.
Again I also reiterate the point the American definition of high functioning autism is very different than mine. Once again Richard skips by and plain ignores my quoted explanations of Schizoid Reactive symptomology. That is Asperger Disorder isn't a personality type. It was a sub group of Schizophrenia described by Kraepelin as Verschrobene. The original Asperger children of Vienne were sent to a special clinic. Most would probably never work. The most gifted of them became a brilliant astronomer but not a psychiatrist or neurologist.
My advice to Richard is to "read" the Asperger papers. I would be surprised if they are even available in English.
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#251

Postby davidbanner99@ » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:56 pm

I happened to notice the DSM has strangely corrected its original incorrect definition of Schizoid Disorder as something that arises in adults. I must admit I wonder whether my former corrections had been read by someone high up who looked into it. Alternatively, someone Russian saw the error. It is now correctly stated Schizoid Disorder appears in childhood. At least where the DSM was requoted. Probably someone originally confused Schizophrenia with Schizoid Disorder since Schizophrenia is thought to appear around the late teenage years. This latter point, however, I have found to be often contradictory. In my most recent essays I will show how psychologists wound up holding irreconciable differences over the onset of Schizophrenia. And a few psychologists assert Asperger's Disorder and Kanner Autism were in reality just Childhood Schizophrenia.
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#252

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:35 pm

davidbanner99@ wrote:I never actually stated autistic researchers were banned from contributing.


No one said that David made such a claim. He claimed in his first post, "...autism research has been monopolised...research is being carried out and published in a system that apparently marginalises those who suffer from autism related disorders.."

This has been demonstrated inaccurate.

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opin ... arch-67628

"For every high-quality piece of work an autistic researcher puts out on autism, the more the autistic perspective will be valued or recognized."
—Monique Botha, University of Surrey


Monique is herself autistic. There are those with autism researching, publishing, and are also editors.

davidbanner99@ wrote: Myself (and Tom quoted earlier) used the term "marginalised". In both mine and Tom's examples this meant such people were neither represented, by the so-called Neurodiversity Movement, nor have had any imput thus far to understanding clinical disorders.


David wants to modify the original claim, saying that the term "marginalized" has a different meaning. But his claims still are that people with autism are:

-1- Not represented.
-2- Have had no input.

Both false claims.

And all that is required to demonstrate this is the same source already cited. Because David does not wish to acknowledge the contribution of those with autism on autism, I will go ahead and repeat...

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opin ... arch-67628

"For every high-quality piece of work an autistic researcher puts out on autism, the more the autistic perspective will be valued or recognized."
—Monique Botha, University of Surrey


Monique is herself autistic. There are those with autism researching, publishing, and are also editors.

There are also groups dedicated to autism researchers that research autism, helping them connect and grow an even stronger presence in the field. David has even admitted participating in these groups.

The bottom line, they are represented and their research is included. You can even use Google Scholar to look at what they have published or follow them on ResearchGate.
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#253

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:05 am

Here is one of Monique's most recent publications...

It discusses the stigma of autism and how the ability of those with autism to produce knowledge on autism has been questioned. At the same time, she cites those that recognize those with autism have a scientific understanding of autism.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. ... 20.1822782

"Indeed, it has been argued that because autistic individuals are autistic, they lack the ability to produce reliable knowledge on autism (Frith and Happe 1999; Hens, Robeyns, and Schaubroeck 2019). Different ways of understanding autism convey different levels of stigma, however. Autistic individuals tend to have a reliable and scientific understanding of autism, which is also less stigmatising (Gillespie-Lynch et al. 2017). Thus, this study aims to qualitatively investigate autistic individuals’ identity and how they themselves, consider autism.

Participants, in expressing the discreteness of neurotypes (being autistic versus non-autistic), acknowledge that they themselves are different, but that society marginalizes everything that is different, and this is where the issue lies."


Like others with autism, David feels stigmatized.

The indisputable, observable fact that those with autism are conducting research, publishing, and actively contributing to the field of autism doesn't change the feeling of being marginalized.
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#254

Postby davidbanner99@ » Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:17 pm

"Monique is herself autistic. There are those with autism researching, publishing, and are also editors."

Autistic or psychopathic?

This in itself shows you never read Asperger's papers, Richard. Due to that, you so often slip up.
Had you read Asperger or Samuel Munhin, you would know the diagnosis of Autistic Psychopathy related to females is either very rare or certainly open to debate. I could quote you Asperger direct but this may suffice for now:

"Similarly, in 1944, when Hans Asperger described the syndrome that would come to bear his name, he initially found it only in boys. "

All my archived anamneses from the USSR special schools concern Jewish or Russian boys.

Remember, my area of research tends to narrow down to the criteria that fits me. Selfish as that may be. Autistic Psychopathy (Asperger's Disorder) is far less common than has been falsely claimed in America. My own studies show Asperger's team evaluated 200 cases in a population of about 7000,000 and only four boys were illustrated in the essay. Of these one was put down to encephalitis.

Of those 200 cases, Asperger and his team never found a single female that showed full symptoms of Psychopathy. I must say that I would tend to endorse that point of view. Despite pretty absurd claims Asperger was "sexist" for not changing his deductive reason to conform to desired views on equality.

When you state Monique is autistic, I must say the area I work in is very specific and here you are generalising. What classification of autism does Monique have? My take on this is in rare cases we may encounter females with Autistic Psychopathy but it is rare.

More to the point, I repeat once more that when you assert those with autism are actively contributing to research, this just assumes such people really are representative of the said pathology. Yet, in the U. S. the clinical pathology I've been researching is hugely misunderstood and misdiagnosed. And popularised. Made into a classification akin to transgender or race.

Quote one Russian psychiatrist:

"В особенности эта тенденция проявляется в американской классификации, где вялотекущая шизофрения ушла в расстройства личности и превратилась в шизотипическое расстройство."

"In particular, this trend is manifested in the American classification, where the sluggish schizophrenia went into personality disorder and turned into a schizotypic disorder."

As explained repeatedly in this thread, in English speaking countries, Schizotypic Disorder is confused with clinical psychology.

Can you share how specifically those you quote as autistic have changed or clarified the diagnosis Asperger described in 1940s Vienne? And how do you square his assertion the disorder affects boys and not girls, in light of female researchers you highlight. I suppose I may sound sexist but there is a certain irony.

By the way I am not sexist at all.

To answer my question we require:

(1) Your actual definition of Asperger's Disorder based on his descriptions and observations. Or at least your own definition.
(2) How have autistic people in the academic field altered or added to this diagnosis? Theories, modifications, opinion?

Can you please give facts and some outline in your posts.

P.S. Most people in the US who identify as having Asperger Syndrome disowned Asperger under the media claim he was a supporter of Hitler Germany. The net result was probably the most valuable information we have to date is now ignored - under the influence of political generalisation.
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