Marginalised Researchers In Neurology

#135

Postby davidbanner99@ » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:01 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
davidbanner99@ wrote:Neurologist quote:

"In this state, literally several years pass, and we see a defective personality of a schizophrenic - a person without emotions, without motives, with a reduced energy potential and torn thinking."


This is not you. You are not in that state.

You have motivation. You have motive in basically everything you do. You have plenty of energy. You joined the forum. You actively participate. Your emotion is on display with every thread, with every post, with every blog, with every desire you express with your deep passion for autism.

This is your choice. Your view as such. When you say "deep passion" this refers to the "special interests" Asperger described. That means Asperger was wrong about emotions and instinct. How do you reconcile Asperger's comments on emotion with his discussion on obsessive interests? What about Fritz F? Was his interest in astronomy proof Asperger was wrong? And why did Asperger comment on Fritz's emotional deficit?
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#136

Postby davidbanner99@ » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:08 pm

That is obsessive interest is a key part of the diagnosis. So is emotional flatness. So is motor impairment. Facial agnosia. Repetitive patterns.
The fact Fritz became an astronomer doesn't negate his autism. Most of the Asperger kids had obsessive interests.
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#137

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:28 pm

davidbanner99@ wrote: How do you reconcile Asperger's comments on emotion with his discussion on obsessive interests? What about Fritz F? Was his interest in astronomy proof Asperger was wrong? And why did Asperger comment on Fritz's emotional deficit?


An "emotional deficit" does not equal "no emotion". It does not mean devoid of emotion. It also does not mean a deficit spread equally across all categories and/or ranges of emotion and across all conditions.

An obsessive interest is driven by emotion. This includes Fritz F.

In other words, I don't think there is anything to reconcile. Asperger's observations and my own observations are in agreement.
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#138

Postby davidbanner99@ » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:12 pm

Richard stated as follows:

"This is not you. You are not in that state.
You have motivation. You have motive in basically everything you do. You have plenty of energy. "

Looking at this logically. A major interest in autism research means I myself have motivation and driven by emotions. This is the conlusion - self-study = motivation.

Let's quote Asperger:

"Таким образом, мы видим здесь то, с чем мы сталкиваемся почтиу у всех больных аутизмом - сформировался особый интерес, который позволяет мальчику демонстрировать выдаюшиеся успехи в своей области." (Аспергер).

"So what we see here is what we encounter in almost all autistic people - a special interest that allows the boy to show outstanding success in his field." (Asperger).

So, Asperger "almost all" his autistic children had what Richard called "motivation" or "energy". What Richard calls "passion" is basically the "special interest". Conclusion so far? I would guess Asperger would see nothing unusual in my own obsessive interests (there are others).

We can rule out hurdle no 1.

If necessary I can dig back a former, very clear explanation that emotion in this kind of pathology is flat and unresponsive. I added emotion is a flat line with explosive bursts during meltdown - called the "affective curve".

Does special interest eliminate flat emotional or lack of motivation?

"Дети находящиеся в отделении в стационаре в Вене страдали от трудностей в сфере эмоционального реагирования. К этому следует добавить, что y нормалных людей, механизм реагирования соответстует требованиям общественной жизни."

"The children in the Vienna inpatient ward suffered from emotional difficulties. To this it should be added that in normal people, the reaction mechanism meets the requirements of social life."

I repeat the former quote. It may have been a bit vague but the sense is robotic and non-feelng. This patient had been diagnosed with Kanner autisn in Russia. This same patient had learned to play the organ but the psychologist regardless mentions severe emotional unresponsiveness.

"Ребенок производит впечатление робота, в который забыли вставить блок координации психических функций. “(Л. М. Шипицына).

“The child gives the impression of a robot, into which they forgot to insert a unit for coordinating mental functions. “(L. M. Shipitsyna).

Overall conclusion. Richard's interest in this subject is welcome and appreciated. It just appears he often misses my explanations and rushes to conclusions. For example, thyroid and gland function is indeed a factor in autism as well as somatic anomalies. Maybe he confuses mental obsessive motivation for special interests with physical and socially based motivation. Maybe it's unfair of me to assume these differences are evident? My guess is it's very hard to relate to neurological deviation.
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#139

Postby davidbanner99@ » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:37 pm

littlebrowndragon wrote:
Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
You say you are devoted to animals, specifically your dog. Devotion is an emotion. You use emotion, not logic when it comes to your dog.

When you eat you use emotion. There might be a logical component, e.g. avoid food X, but the underlying drivers of what you eat, when you eat, etc. are all decisions derived from emotion.


I agree that emotion is a strong motivator. However, why is logic better?


This is something you must ponder. What does emotion do? I would say it bonds people together psychologically. It's very definitely a whole language in itself. Do you smile at strangers? I myself do not. Do your eyes move about and do your face muscles vibrate to represent your emotions? In my case no. I suppose I must be sexually unattractive because emotions bond you to other people.
The plus of emotion is it bonds you to family, team, friends and community.
The minus is I think it hinders cold analysis. For example, to study autism I have to not be held back by its emotional impact. If I suffered rejection, I need to analyse why rather than get upset. That is understand the psychoanalytical side. This helped me to understand behaviour. Not just feel angry or flattered.
The big question is what causes defective emotion? I mean, years ago my dad fell and broke his leg. My mother at the time was knitting while sat on the sofa. The ambulance came. Finally my dad was put on a stretcher and onto an ambulance. Meantime, my mother never got up and dropped her knitting needles. And when her emotions triggered it could be explosive tears. Very rarely, of course.
Causes are nowadays attributed to inner illness of an unknown nature. However, I tend to gravitate towards psychological causes.
Not feeling emotion for me is a mixed fate. It helped me relt on my deductive ability and logic. Yet, I never had a stable relationship and only have one or two friends.
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#140

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:40 pm

I'm not sure where we disagree david?

What you just posted agrees with everything I have pointed out. Emotion is not absent. Even if people on the autism spectrum show indications of being emotionally different or lacking in emotion, it doesn't mean they are devoid of emotion. And it doesn't mean that emotion is not the primary driver of their behaviors.

Emotion precedes the use of logic. End of story. Full stop.

It doesn't matter if it is a neurotypical or someone on the spectrum.
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#141

Postby davidbanner99@ » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:34 pm

I'm posting a clip here of emotional flatness. When I first saw a movie on the Beach Boys years ago, I strongly related to Brian Wilson. There were big similarities: Very authoritarian family background, flare-up of mental breakdown in early adulthood. I am also kind of flattered as I view myself as an obscure but creative musician, influenced by The Beatles, Jefferson Airplane and so on. I share one opinion with Paul Mcartney which is Brian's God Only Knows was just an awesome song. It featured on Pet Sounds. Just the way it starts and the unorthodox use of chords blew me away. Many of Brian's songs were not only beautifully melodic but different somehow.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHyWQSXMAgQ
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#142

Postby davidbanner99@ » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:52 pm

Now, here's an example of "normal" emotional expression. Can you see here what's so obvious for normal people that they would never notice?
I find women tend to be more emotionally communicative than men. Here, the emotions are flowing and finding no resistance in the pathway from neuro-impulse in the brain, to vibration, or resonance in the face, vocal chords, as well as motor expression (the body). This may well sound absurd to you but for me this had to be learned and observed. It has to be contrasted. For decades I just never realised this is what most people do and such communication is valued far more by society than analytical. Most Dallas actors and actresses are worth around the 25 million mark. They can communicate, make people smile, charm, and they appear sexually and materially attractive.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cgZPtI25Bu8
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#143

Postby davidbanner99@ » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:10 pm

Practically no people who are Schizoid personality or Schizophrenic realise what "mimicry" is. Mostly they're interested in other things. They assume they are the same as others but such is far from being the truth.
You can still apply this in non clinical psychology. Some neurotypical people have varied degrees of emotional flatness. For example, Alfred Hitchcock shows much lower mimicry and his face is harder to read. I don't think Hitch had Asperger Disorder as is claimed but he does have that kind of personality (shizotimik).
My own mimicry is so flat I tend to scare people initially. I can't smile or laugh as a natural process of communication. My expresson remains intense and rigid. Friends remark I may not even look at them when talking - I am curious as to whether they guessed I have a disorder but never talk of this even to family.
Don't read me wrong. I don't ever feel sorry for myself but just feel a need to learn this aspect of psychology and maybe help others.
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#144

Postby davidbanner99@ » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:17 pm

Here, Judie Tsuke and her cover of God Only Knows.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rRgAMKaK7s0
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#145

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:05 am

davidbanner99@ wrote:Now, here's an example of emotional flatness.


Brian Wilson was motivated to participate in the interview. He had a deep passion for music. He was not using logic when responding to the questions. His short responses were based on intuition, feeling, and rote memory. His responses were not analytical.

When you use the term “emotion” I think you are focused on the external display, the behavior of expression or “emoting”.

Emotional flatness does not equal use of logic.
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#146

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:00 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
davidbanner99@ wrote:Now, here's an example of emotional flatness.


Brian Wilson was motivated to participate in the interview. He had a deep passion for music. He was not using logic when responding to the questions. His short responses were based on intuition, feeling, and rote memory. His responses were not analytical.

When you use the term “emotion” I think you are focused on the external display, the behavior of expression or “emoting”.

Emotional flatness does not equal use of logic.


Brian apparently has Schizophrenia. The specifics of his diagnostic history have been debated. Brian himself blames LSD in his early career for his hallucinations and downturns.
The other questions I really cannot answer as I recommend you read Asperger's essays. Nobody said autistic people have no emotions at all. It's called emotional flatness or affective scale. If you find a translation of Asperger's paper please let me know as I am curious if it's available.
I am unable to explain this issue any better so the best way is for you to read that essay. It is not a long read and explains everything.
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#147

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:37 am

You can learn to interact instinctively or in rare cases may need explanation. Some people don't know how to interact and need to have social rules explained. When to make eye contact, when to smile; when to follow a line of discussion without changing topic.
The only way to really understand Asperger Disorder is to have the neurological deviation yourself. Most psychologists can't understand it. The scale of misunderstanding was so great the whole diagnosis was scrapped from the DSM. Yet for me it is not at all complicated. Asperger's essays made perfect sense.
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#148

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:00 am

davidbanner99@ wrote: Nobody said autistic people have no emotions at all.


So we agree. Brian Wilson was passionate (emotionally driven) to pursue music. Likewise, you are emotionally driven to try and understand the psychology of autism. It is not logic, it is emotion.

Like Brian, you share or have shared a degree of emotional flatness. Fair enough.
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#149

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:23 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
davidbanner99@ wrote: Nobody said autistic people have no emotions at all.


So we agree. Brian Wilson was passionate (emotionally driven) to pursue music. Likewise, you are emotionally driven to try and understand the psychology of autism. It is not logic, it is emotion.

Like Brian, you share or have shared a degree of emotional flatness. Fair enough.


We don't agree really. As I see it you seemed to have acknowledged the list of quotes provided where psychologists confirm what I tried to explain. Then, you returned to your former argument once again. As if the quotes made no difference.
This point you raise is that the core symptom of obsessive interest is an indication of emotional drive and energy. You added because I myself am obsessively interested in clinical psychology - that distinguishes me from other autistic people.
Here is what Asperger wrote about Fritz F - the patient I mentioned. Let's start with his emotional status before quoting the paragraph on his obsessive interests.

"He demonstrates no real feelings towards anyone. Occasionally he does experience genuine bursts of affection and seemingly without motive will lean upon various peoples' shoulders. Yet this is no reason to be optimistic as this is not the same as sincere feelings, or genuine warmth. It is quite spontaneous as an impulse. You get the impression he could never really love anyone or do anything for anyone. He is not concerned over whether people get angry or upset on his account."(Asperger)

So, Asperger is clearly stating Fritz shows major symptoms of emotional disfunction. Even his leaning on people as if they were "objects" is mentioned, more than once in the essays.

At the same time, Asperger writes:

"Very early on he demonstrated an interest in maths and numbers. Nobody ever tried to teach him anything. He himself sometimes asked questions and not only taught himself to count to 100 but (possibly as a game) could reproduce mathematical formulae, during this period."(Asperger)

So, we see obsessive interest isn't interpreted as negating the emotional disfunction referred to.

To add, my own obsessive interests are not driven by emotion but a kind of obsessive compulsive disorder. I imagine with Fritz it was the same.

Here is the key paragraph:

"Principally, exaggerated personal distance, impairment of instinctive and emotional reaction, which is a characteristic of autists, in a certain sense is a prerequisite for understanding the world through the medium of reason."(Asperger)

It is pretty much as I tried to explain.
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