Marginalised Researchers In Neurology

#150

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:48 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
davidbanner99@ wrote: Nobody said autistic people have no emotions at all.


So we agree. Brian Wilson was passionate (emotionally driven) to pursue music. Likewise, you are emotionally driven to try and understand the psychology of autism. It is not logic, it is emotion.

Like Brian, you share or have shared a degree of emotional flatness. Fair enough.



"Likewise, you are emotionally driven to try and understand"


The text takes the very opposite view. Learning through emotional interaction is ruled out. Obsessive interests as they mature are thought to develop from OCD stereotypical behavious patterns in childhood.

"Along these lines, Asperger came to the conclusion that only "through reason, regulations and rules, autistic children can learn what other children learn by themselves", in emotional terms, based on instincts." (Asperger)

"It is a frequently repeated statement that the presence or absence of "special hobbies" in the patient's history is not particularly significant in relation to the diagnosis of Asperger's autism. Despite this, as it was already clear above, these hobbies are rooted in those stereotypical movements that manifest themselves in early childhood. It should also be borne in mind that in the case of autists, contact with the outside world is usually broken. Therefore, a certain empty space is created which makes it necessary to immerse oneself in special interests. "
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#151

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:53 pm

I will stop using the word "emotion" to describe what drives you and instead use the word "motivation".

You experience intrinsic motivation in the forms of pleasure, comfort, joy, fear, pain, discomfort, regret, satisfaction, etc. etc. which drives you to research and write about autism. You have deep, intrinsic motivation that drives this passion to the point it is a kind of obsessive compulsive disorder.

That a person might display emotion or "emote" outwardly in an impaired manner does not takeaway the intrinsic motives that they use in determining which activities they find interesting our the decisions they make. The same as a neurotypical is intrinsically motivated to eat a hamburger because they enjoy the taste, a person with autism is similarly motivated. It isn't a decision of logic, but one factors related to their underlying motivations, e.g. the pleasure of consuming a juicy burger.
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#152

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:55 pm

Changing topic I recently bought a cactus at reduced price in a supermarket. I recently repotted it and it's indoors. I thought it odd most people tell me they din't like cactus. Some associate them with negative energy. They appeal to me as they are very passive but prickle those who get too close. Sort of a loner plant. The main bonus is they're easy to keep.
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#153

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:16 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:I will stop using the word "emotion" to describe what drives you and instead use the word "motivation".

You experience intrinsic motivation in the forms of pleasure, comfort, joy, fear, pain, discomfort, regret, satisfaction, etc. etc. which drives you to research and write about autism. You have deep, intrinsic motivation that drives this passion to the point it is a kind of obsessive compulsive disorder.

That a person might display emotion or "emote" outwardly in an impaired manner does not takeaway the intrinsic motives that they use in determining which activities they find interesting our the decisions they make. The same as a neurotypical is intrinsically motivated to eat a hamburger because they enjoy the taste, a person with autism is similarly motivated. It isn't a decision of logic, but one factors related to their underlying motivations, e.g. the pleasure of consuming a juicy burger.

What you write simply doesn't relate to my experiences. You are applying your own thought mechanisms and trying to apply that to your understanding of those who differ neurologically.
Most of the material I read was originally in German or Russian. The latter research in my view is more advanced than in the U.S. I rarely have major disagreements with these researchers although, sure, I find points I may differ over. However, overall, these people tend to accept a basic outline that developed since the 19th century. The interpretations you present seem very at odds with German and European studies. Mostly objections and contradictions. It would help if you could quote from key texts to support your point of view but you present no evidence. I would be interested to know if you can list the core symptomo!ogy of Asperger or Kanner autism because then, at least, it would show you read up on the subject.
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#154

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:21 pm

davidbanner99@ wrote: They appeal to me...


It appeals to you. So you are intrinsically motivated to appreciate cacti. Nice.

I enjoy cheese. I prefer sharp, it appeals to me.
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#155

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:38 pm

Here you go. Three articles that discuss decision making and autism. Enjoy.

https://www.jneurosci.org/content/jneur ... 6.full.pdf

Baron-Cohen, S., Ring, H. A., Bullmore, E. T., Wheelwright, S., Ashwin, C., & Williams, S. C. R. (2000). The amygdala theory of autism. Neuroscience & Biobehavioral Reviews, 24(3), 355-364.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ro ... t-they.pdf
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#156

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:48 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Here you go. Three articles that discuss decision making and autism. Enjoy.

https://www.jneurosci.org/content/jneur ... 6.full.pdf

Baron-Cohen, S., Ring, H. A., Bullmore, E. T., Wheelwright, S., Ashwin, C., & Williams, S. C. R. (2000). The amygdala theory of autism. Neuroscience & Biobehavioral Reviews, 24(3), 355-364.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ro ... t-they.pdf


Appears to be a random copy and paste job. There are reasons I read mostly Russian research. It's basically ahead of English lang research. Mostly that's a result of German sources becoming available through the GDR.
I briefly chatted to a few American researchers who published several books. Mostly they quote formulae but very little understanding of the subject as a whole. Same in the UK.
Best research is German. Most were Austrians.
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#157

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:47 pm

It was by no means random. Each of the articles discusses the role of emotion in decision making and how those on the spectrum differ from “neurotypicals”.

That you have a motivated preference for German/Russian research is simply more evidence that clearly demonstrates how your decisions are fundamentally driven.
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#158

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:25 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:It was by no means random. Each of the articles discusses the role of emotion in decision making and how those on the spectrum differ from “neurotypicals”.

That you have a motivated preference for German/Russian research is simply more evidence that clearly demonstrates how your decisions are fundamentally driven.


My thread has helped prove a point. As stated I research autism and suffered more severe autism at school. This led to major complications. And it exposed a psychology support system that was pretty hopeless at the time.
The fact I study science as well as psychology would indicate I have some theoretical knowledge as well as personal. Yet, you - and the majority of practitioners in the community - reject imput from someone who lived through these symptoms. Even if I had zero knowledge of psychology, to reject and contradict, even if it's a patient shows poor credentials. You are claiming to know more than the experience of the patient might tell you. You likewise basically ignore such imput and build a barrier based on jargon and sources supported by State grants - to justify cosy department lecture positions. What likely rocks the boat is when someone such as myself has the audacity to prove autistic people can more easily shed light on their own neurological deviations. In such cases, when politely correcting views held by so-called experts my imput was quietly removed. I imagine it's not easy to get used to. Most research was based on 11 year old children whose odd behaviour was interpreted along lines that assumed normality is a constant. They also disliked Asperger because his research idealised "listening" to the people so categorised. Therefore nonsense was dug up to claim Asperger was a dedicated Nazi. Meantime Churchills image adorns sterling currency as a national icon - a man who endorsed euthanasia of autistic children.
Personally I don't care about my imput being ignored. I'm already well aware how useless mainstream research is in the USA. I also heard of endless cases of misdiagnosis. I stand by my reaearch as thorough and supported by real experience. I think your unwillingness to even try to listen is revealing. It shows lack of curiosity and a safety mechanism of resorting to contradiction. Can't see how that could help anyone who might be similar to myself but seeking answers.
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#159

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:29 am

davidbanner99@ wrote:My thread has helped prove a point.


Yes. It has proven that like almost every other person on the planet you are driven by emotion.

This does not mean you don't experience an "emotional deficit". It doesn't mean you display emotion in the same way as other people. It just means you have proven that emotion is still fundamental to how you process information and make decisions. This includes your devotion to your dog, your appeal to a cactus, or your deep passion for research on autism.

And what you have written has not be dismissed nor has it been met with a lack of curiosity. In fact, I have asked you multiple questions repeatedly. Admittedly it has become tiring when you go off on a tangent to avoid answering, but this is just more proof of how emotion influences your participation in the forum.

You wish to paint a picture of your work being dismissed because you are autistic. I don't think this is the case. I do not think you have made that point. In fact, you seem to have made the opposite point with example after example you have provided of people with autism being very successful in a wide variety of domains. People are very accepting of the views of those with autism if what they have to offer has real value, e.g. Temple Grandin.

That you, as an individual do not experience success is not because of your autism. It is because you maintain a closed mind and what you offer is not anywhere near the value offered by Temple Grandin. For some reason you think by narrowing what you consider worthy research to mostly German/Russian you isolate yourself from the research community. That isn't the fault of the research community and it has nothing to do with your autism. It is you making a conscious choice to ignore large bodies of academic work, because you personally don't find it very useful. That isn't the way science works. That is the opposite of science.
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#160

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:15 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
davidbanner99@ wrote:My thread has helped prove a point.


Yes. It has proven that like almost every other person on the planet you are driven by emotion.

This does not mean you don't experience an "emotional deficit". It doesn't mean you display emotion in the same way as other people. It just means you have proven that emotion is still fundamental to how you process information and make decisions. This includes your devotion to your dog, your appeal to a cactus, or your deep passion for research on autism.

And what you have written has not be dismissed nor has it been met with a lack of curiosity. In fact, I have asked you multiple questions repeatedly. Admittedly it has become tiring when you go off on a tangent to avoid answering, but this is just more proof of how emotion influences your participation in the forum.

You wish to paint a picture of your work being dismissed because you are autistic. I don't think this is the case. I do not think you have made that point. In fact, you seem to have made the opposite point with example after example you have provided of people with autism being very successful in a wide variety of domains. People are very accepting of the views of those with autism if what they have to offer has real value, e.g. Temple Grandin.

That you, as an individual do not experience success is not because of your autism. It is because you maintain a closed mind and what you offer is not anywhere near the value offered by Temple Grandin. For some reason you think by narrowing what you consider worthy research to mostly German/Russian you isolate yourself from the research community. That isn't the fault of the research community and it has nothing to do with your autism. It is you making a conscious choice to ignore large bodies of academic work, because you personally don't find it very useful. That isn't the way science works. That is the opposite of science.

Let's talk about you, although psychoanalysis isn't my field. Maybe I picked a bit of it up but anyway..
Your issue is you have a tendency to not process information or allow information to enter. Instead you contradict. You also argue relying on emotion and not cold processing of data. I can show this by quoting various "snippets" where you use block capitals or sarcasm and so forth. Not specifically in my case. You attacked vegeterianism a few posts back and referred to another poster's view as "absurd". In these cases you didn't allow information to assimilate but instead rejected and contradicted.
Let's put it this way: You claim apparently to know a great deal about neurological deviation. Let's try a few questions you can't copy and paste:
(1) What is the affective (emotional)
curve of emotion related to Autistic Psychopathy?
(2) How did Eugen Bleuler modify the essays of Kraepelin and what was Kraepelin's term for "Schizophrenia"?
(3) What are the four "A"s of Schizophrenia?
(4)How does facial agnosia relate to Kanner Autism?
(5) What is abstract thinking in terms of Asperger Autism?
Just random questions at a basic level. Answers don't have to be exact but the idea is to see if you have some base of knowledge of the subject.
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#161

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:27 pm

It's unclear also why you obsess over emotion. If you know what the "affective curve" is, there is no need to get bogged down over this. Nobody here ever stated autists have no emotions at all. What is recognised by pretty much all of us is low emotional reaction is a core symptom of Kanner Autism or Asperger Disorder. Being obsessed with, say, maths or even collecting does not negate the former characteristic.
Instead of avoiding and objecting, please attempt to answer the questions above and maybe tell us how you would diagnose a patient. Please let's see something concrete other than word games and objections.
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#162

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:14 pm

Psychology lesson:
I have had this experience before on various forums. It happens a lot. Members occasionally challenge an individual and, in so doing, will steer a debate along lines where they feel safe. The safety zone is one where the discussion draws you into a tit for tat exchange that leads to nowhere. And helps nobody. In such cases a good idea is to.narrow the debate down to some actual demonstration of knowledge. Does Richard know how to accurately define such conditions as HFA or Asperger Disorder or the various sub types of Schizophrenia? Personally I doubt it. Of course, I may be mistaken. Past experience has taught me not to get drawn into endless debate over defininitions on the other persons terms. Anyone can contradict and google up random articles. Question is, have they actually read them? I would like to see in this case some simple quotes from sources used by Richard to back up his arguments. I'd like to hear some concrete definition to show he has actually studied this area of clinical psychology. To date, the backbone of his postings are to simply affirm I myself am wrong. Any quotes I use from known sources he ignores. And none supplied.
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#163

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:48 pm

davidbanner99@ wrote:Members occasionally challenge an individual and, in so doing, will steer a debate along lines where they feel safe. The safety zone is one where the discussion draws you into a tit for tat exchange that leads to nowhere. And helps nobody.

In such cases a good idea is to.narrow the debate down to some actual demonstration of knowledge. Does Richard know how to accurately define such conditions as HFA or Asperger Disorder or the various sub types of Schizophrenia? Personally I doubt it.


You do realize that you are now doing exactly what you are trying to accuses others of doing? You are trying to steer the debate, to retreat to where you feel safe.

If I wanted to steer you to where I feel safe I would ask you questions related to educational psychology, goal theory and decision making. I would ask you about the RPD model, NDM, or Locke's goal setting theory. I would steer the discussion towards behavioral economics or ask you to explain the difference between motivated reasoning and confirmation bias. I would ask you to share your thoughts on the ADDIE model of instruction, on epistemology and cognitive dissonance.

But, I don't need to steer the debate in any given direction to make me feel safe. Apparently you do.

davidbanner99@ wrote:I have had this experience before on various forums. It happens a lot.


I'm sure it does. I'm also fairly confident that you have yet to figure out why it happens so often.
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#164

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:18 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
davidbanner99@ wrote:Members occasionally challenge an individual and, in so doing, will steer a debate along lines where they feel safe. The safety zone is one where the discussion draws you into a tit for tat exchange that leads to nowhere. And helps nobody.

In such cases a good idea is to.narrow the debate down to some actual demonstration of knowledge. Does Richard know how to accurately define such conditions as HFA or Asperger Disorder or the various sub types of Schizophrenia? Personally I doubt it.


You do realize that you are now doing exactly what you are trying to accuses others of doing? You are trying to steer the debate, to retreat to where you feel safe.

If I wanted to steer you to where I feel safe I would ask you questions related to educational psychology, goal theory and decision making. I would ask you about the RPD model, NDM, or Locke's goal setting theory. I would steer the discussion towards behavioral economics or ask you to explain the difference between motivated reasoning and confirmation bias. I would ask you to share your thoughts on the ADDIE model of instruction, on epistemology and cognitive dissonance.

But, I don't need to steer the debate in any given direction to make me feel safe. Apparently you do.

davidbanner99@ wrote:I have had this experience before on various forums. It happens a lot.


I'm sure it does. I'm also fairly confident that you have yet to figure out why it happens so often.


Totally agree. On that point you are correct. I'm sure that in your chosen area of psychology you will know far more than I do. There is a difference, however. I myself have not contradicted you in your given sphere of knowledge. On the contrary, it is you who contradicted me. This is more easily accomplished if the objector simply objects and states an author is wrong. Therefore, I'm justified to ask for some evidence of your reading on this particular subject. That means addressing at least some of the questions with a reply hopefully backed up by source quotes. That would show me you have read up enough or investigated enough to be seriously interested. As it is, it seems the modus operandi so far is to object, dismiss and somehow claim a status of superiority.
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