Conspiracy Theorists (bad impression?)

Postby davidbanner99@ » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:11 pm

Here's something to think about. Given we are now in a war to protect basic civil rights and individuality, I have noticed the Conspiracy Theory Movement seems to lack the basic grasp of reality required to solve these issues. I was stunned to find messages on conspiracy sites that tend to dismiss real protest as "staged". In cases where literally thousands of people acted and stood up for their liberty, the conspiracy theorists were claiming such protesters were paid-up actors. There was such nonsense being spread that all such protests were a set-up and so forth. I asked whether this applied to similar protests in Prague, Barcelona, Netherlands....
Could you imagine how WW2 would have ended up for the allies if Russians had claimed the battle of Stalingrad had really been staged by Germany?To make it look as if the allies were winning.
Such negativity!
I think we're seeing two types of social mass hysteria:
(1) The killer virus party. It seems the virus is indeed a risk for elderly people or those with serious comorbid illness. This we were told at the beginning. However, this has now morphed into an ideology of doom and intolerance, suspicion, paranoia, and exploitation by politicians. The hysteria we see is pretty much identical to the16th century witch trials.
(2) Camp 2 is the conspiracy zone. Not to be confused with civil rights and democracy protesters. Very many conspiracy theorists pump the message we're all doomed to live in a New World Order 15 years ago we were told this would be a unilateral global order led by the USA. However with the rise of the EU, China and in military context Russia, such a view proved to be incorrect. So now, conspiracy theorists are shifting to a new definition: The New World Order has somehow hooked every national government on the globe into a shared plan to presumably turn us into zombies. And when thousands of people get out and protest - it's supposedly futile? This latter case we may consider also to be a symptom of mass hysteria.
I conclude the mass hysteria we see amounts pretty much to one and the same thing - only the doomsday message differs. Message 1 is we are doomed by the virus. Message 2 is we are doomed by those who believe we are doomed (as conspirators).
What is the reality? I think there's a need for psychologists to inform populations and politicians that mass hysteria is real. There's a need to take sensible measures but not to undermine democracy in the process.
In London on Saturday the protests were huge and sent a warning message. Bigger protests are planned. Yet the root of it all is in mass, social hysteria and paranoia. Possibly turning into a perfect storm.
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#1

Postby tokeless » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:10 pm

Have you ever considered the portrayal of conspiracy believers as an act of conspiracy itself, orchestrated by the establishment? Paint them as a bit loony, you know tin foil hat wearers to undermine their requests for truth. For years people were encouraged to report UFOs as a way of helping the establishment in their quest to know if we have been visited... all the time using aircraft covertly in tests under the idea if anyone sees something, say we'll look in to it. It's a UFO... u **** off.
Unless people question and challenge power, the power becomes more contaminated because it lacks oversight or scrutiny. What better defence is there to paint these people as mad or deluded?
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#2

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:22 am

davidbanner99@ wrote:Here's something to think about.


Okay...

And here is also something to think about....

The vast majority of the world is operating post pandemic. I’m not saying people are not angry about government over reach, but being angry about lockdowns is rational. Being angry about all the disinformation from politicians on every side of the issue is understandable. That people are angry is not evidence of mass hysteria.

Maybe, maybe, the reason you believe there is widespread mass hysteria is because you spend your time in conspiracy forums and watching people acting hysterical on social media. You are attracted to click bait hysteria and this shapes your view that “mass hysteria” is a wide spread issue that needs to be addressed. You are primed to see hysteria everywhere you look.

It is interesting for me, because I’m living in a completely different world. Out of 190+ countries in the world, I only see “hysteria” in countries where the media promotes clickbait trash. I only see “hysteria” in political messaging. I don’t see actual hysteria. I just see angry people and power hungry politicians. Sure, I see the occasional hysterical rant on social media, but I understand these are clickbait, not representative of the general population.

If you want the hysteria to subside, my suggestion is to stop visiting conspiracy forums and stop engaging in whatever social channels you are using to shape your view of the world. If you turn the channel and focus on different activities, “poof” the hysteria will disappear.

Arguably, maybe I’m the one that is living a sheltered existence. Maybe mass hysteria is sweeping the globe. Maybe the media I use to stay informed is painting a picture that is inaccurate. I’m open to that possibility. But I guess if the world is burning down while I remain ignorant that’s okay. I can just live in my isolated bubble where people are calmly going through the post pandemic awkward process of returning to school, opening business, etc.
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#3

Postby davidbanner99@ » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:17 pm

tokeless wrote:Have you ever considered the portrayal of conspiracy believers as an act of conspiracy itself, orchestrated by the establishment? Paint them as a bit loony, you know tin foil hat wearers to undermine their requests for truth. For years people were encouraged to report UFOs as a way of helping the establishment in their quest to know if we have been visited... all the time using aircraft covertly in tests under the idea if anyone sees something, say we'll look in to it. It's a UFO... u **** off.
Unless people question and challenge power, the power becomes more contaminated because it lacks oversight or scrutiny. What better defence is there to paint these people as mad or deluded?

My experience recently is that quite a few conspiracy theorists are inadvertently helping repressive legislation. By stating protests are staged (rigged by governments). Example,Trump supporters who protested recently were said to be FBI agents. Another problem is they often paint any picture that fits a vague idea of a New World Order. Yet, this New World Order is based on the worst possible scenario that we are all helpless to change the course of history. Now imagine if such an idea had prevailed during the Vietnam protests? Every protest dismissed as fake? Every race rights victory put down to merelely a staged plot by those who oppose such equality. Even the Apollo missions we are told were fake. As if shuttles and rockets had never existed.
Put simply, it's important to do all we can to oppose our loss of freedom. That means some grasp of reality. When tens of thousands of people protested in London last Saturday, this was real people getting off social media message boards and reacting to attacks on civil liberties. I don't for a minute believe it was the FBI in fancy dress. Neither are we doomed to this New World Order. Life is what we make it and so much depends upon a positive outlook.
One reason I ditched TV years ago was down to negativity.
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#4

Postby quietvoice » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:46 pm

That means some grasp of reality.

Think about how you would put one over on somebody. What would you do? Would you wholly craft a deception that not one sane (or insane) person would believe, or would you put out some pieces of reality and then build upon those pieces with ideas that "seem" like a logical conclusion, but in reality are deceptions?

For examples, can you not see that those crowds are a mix of real freedom lovers and professional instigators of trouble? Can you not see that "spaceships" can be built, and projected into the air as far as the eye can see, and then when out of sight one must rely upon pictures provided by the agency putting on the show? (Have you ever even put critical thought to analyzing the pictures that are provided as "proof"?)

Those without good intentions infiltrate as much as they can those organizations that do have good intentions. "They" have a looooong-term agenda. Have you any knowledge of the publications from these people? Tell me what you know about central banking, and/or fiat currency. Tell me what you know about living in a society of total digital "currency".

Do you not know that the people who want to control (and kill) those of us who are not part of their club have been at this for decades, and even centuries? Do you not know that they are master manipulators of the human psyche? Do you not see that it is working full-blown today?
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#5

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:25 pm

quietvoice wrote:Do you not know that the people who want to control (and kill) those of us who are not part of their club have been at this for decades, and even centuries? Do you not know that they are master manipulators of the human psyche? Do you not see that it is working full-blown today?


If true, they must be totally incompetent. They are absolutely horrible "master manipulators" if it has required decades or centuries to achieve "full-blown" control of those outside of "The Club".
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#6

Postby quietvoice » Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:33 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
quietvoice wrote:Do you not know that the people who want to control (and kill) those of us who are not part of their club have been at this for decades, and even centuries? Do you not know that they are master manipulators of the human psyche? Do you not see that it is working full-blown today?

If true, they must be totally incompetent. They are absolutely horrible "master manipulators" if it has required decades or centuries to achieve "full-blown" control of those outside of "The Club".

And yet, large numbers of people are willingly muzzling themselves and lining up to get injected with experimental gene "therapy", as well as some of those people committing acts of violence against those who don't follow suit.
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#7

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:52 pm

quietvoice wrote:And yet, large numbers of people are willingly muzzling themselves and lining up to get injected with experimental gene "therapy", as well as some of those people committing acts of violence against those who don't follow suit.


And?

All you are demonstrating is the utter incompetence of "The Club". On the one hand you claim this group of "master manipulators" as operating for decades if not centuries. On the other hand you demonstrate "The Club" as being idiots that have not yet been able to accomplish total domination. They must, even after decades and centuries operate in obscurity, because apparently they are incapable of true dominance. "The Club" is so pathetic that even after centuries they are unable to operate openly and freely in the world they have manipulated, dominate, and supposedly control.
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#8

Postby tokeless » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:21 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
quietvoice wrote:And yet, large numbers of people are willingly muzzling themselves and lining up to get injected with experimental gene "therapy", as well as some of those people committing acts of violence against those who don't follow suit.


And?

All you are demonstrating is the utter incompetence of "The Club". On the one hand you claim this group of "master manipulators" as operating for decades if not centuries. On the other hand you demonstrate "The Club" as being idiots that have not yet been able to accomplish total domination. They must, even after decades and centuries operate in obscurity, because apparently they are incapable of true dominance. "The Club" is so pathetic that even after centuries they are unable to operate openly and freely in the world they have manipulated, dominate, and supposedly control.


I think it's more subtle than you suggest. To manipulate without the manipulated knowing, but still adapting their behaviours is the trick. Change of the degree and nature cannot be overt in a supposed democracy, because it would expose it as a lie. The class system has remained despite people moving up the social ladder, so to speak. They feel they have moved, despite never finding equity with those above them, so they feel satisfied by their changes in circumstances...meanwhile, the manipulators have become even richer or more powerful. When I look back I feel we are more apathetic to what our governments do and say. We have become confused by the differing messages, so we just disengage... check the documentary Hypernormalisation for details of this. Those that continue to challenge, question become the conspiracy theorists and are then ridiculed by those who decide that there is no conspiracy, it's just the way things are.
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#9

Postby davidbanner99@ » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:07 pm

Main thing to clarify is I am totally opposed to the current erosion of democracy, liberty and civil freedoms. It's a travesty.
However, some recent experience on forums where conspiracy theorists predominate has been disappointing. They are over-analysing in a lot of cases and inadvertently sewing seeds of defeatism. It smacks as much of delusion as the actual Covid scaremongering itself.
For example: Huge numbers of people who protest are not really protesters at all but paid up members of the establishment. "It's all part of the plan." To make matters worse, such views end with an incredibly defeatist, "God help us!".
How far do you take it? When Ali refused the draft and millions protested Vietnam, was that also staged. You see my point? Many conspiracy theorists are giving out a message of resigned defeat. I suspect very many simply upload texts and stay hooked up to the internet for hours each day. Not all of them, of course. Just my hunch is that most of the people out on the streets doing something are motivated by social liberty and sanity, and not new world orders.
This may sound harsh but it really did surprise me to see so much negativity and defeat when what we need is people who get up from their social media accounts and go out and stand up for values and principles. Fortunately, thousands of people are doing just that.
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#10

Postby davidbanner99@ » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:26 pm

I imagine this "illuminati" business may be derived from Christien O Brien's Shining Ones. That I see not so much as a conspiracy but a possible distortion of Biblical history. The term "Elohim" translated as "God" was grammatically plural so could be translated as "shining ones".
Assuming the Covid crisis is a planned conspiracy, it means pretty much all political heads of State agreed to spin a yarn of an invisible suit and inject us with a mind-controlling serum.
I am indeed anti vax but my argument against is based on stuff like lack of proceedure and the sheer recklessness seen so far. I view the vaccine as a risky attempt to put a plaster on any new virus. I do not see Putin, Merkel and Trump all shaking hands on a cosy little plot to turn us all into zombies. Let alone the presidents of India or Turkey.
This whole thing I see as delusional, social hysteria on all counts. To counter it we need cold logic and warnings not to retread the path of witch hysteria and witch trials.
The so called New World Order isn't an inevitable future. The future depends upon sanity, reason and principles.
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#11

Postby davidbanner99@ » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:29 pm

Hysteria on all fronts. This is my impression. Although I suspect there is a new virus, the original information it poses some risk to elderly or generally ill people - has now been inflated to ludicrous levels. More formerly tolerant people are clearly getting exasperated. The other night there was supposed to be a ceremony for people to walk to their front door. Nobody bothered.
Shops and businesses are closing everywhere. Unlike most people I walk around with no fear. None whatsoever. Not a threat to me and never will be.
Meantime the protests gather momentum and the truth is it could soon become uncontrolable. London's protest saw police effectively outnumbered. And more will come.
Meantime conspiracy theorists tend to over analyse the social tensions taking place. A large percentage of them seem disconnected from any grasp of reality and everything that takes place is staged. So many of the theorists are also suffering mass hysteria, with random association to fit a desired reality.
All very similar to the 16th century witch hysteria.
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#12

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:47 pm

tokeless wrote:I think it's more subtle than you suggest. To manipulate without the manipulated knowing, but still adapting their behaviours is the trick. Change of the degree and nature cannot be overt in a supposed democracy, because it would expose it as a lie.


I think it is two different issues.

Issue One: The idea of manipulation being subtle. It is often fundamental to the art of politics, especially in a democracy. There are fields of science dedicated to subtle manipulation including "social engineering" and "neuromarketing".

I agree with this position. It is human nature. I'm not arguing that throughout human history subtle manipulation has not been a primary tool of gaining and maintaining power for 200,000+ years.

Issue Two: The claim of "The Club" of "master manipulators" that over decades or even centuries control the world.

This is obviously, at least to me, an absurd claim that is disproven in the very contradiction it presents. At the same time a claim is made that there exists a small group of "master manipulators", there is no acknowledgement that they are apparently so incompetent, that they are so moronic that even after centuries they still are unable to exert true control.
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#13

Postby tokeless » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:41 am

Issue Two: The claim of "The Club" of "master manipulators" that over decades or even centuries control the world.

I concur. I think they are more dynasties of power. This power dates back centuries in some cases. When I buy sugar from the supermarket, it is an item that has history. The plantations, the dominance over people, countries and the ability to make it an essential item in our lives.. it is in virtually anything. The power that creates... then we have oil, banks and in many countries, an inherited class system... a royal family, the elite upper classes.. old money. They have remained in those positions because they have maintained the world order. Why is Africa, an incredibly rich continent in terms of it's natural resources. The vast majority of it's people poor. They are kept poor by the powerful dynasties and corporations by intent in my opinion.. that is their usefulness. If Africa is ever drained of these resources, the manipulators will let it go back to the stone age because it will have no use anymore... the poor can have it back. The fact some things have never changed, despite the rhetoric isn't accidental. So, I don't believe there is a club as such, but I do believe their are connections of vested interests dating back, which maintain the world order for themselves. Politicians come and go every 4-5 years but those behind the doors of power remain. Billionaires run countries Richard... the illusion is that the politicians run it for us, the people, because that's what democracy is. They don't wear toga's anymore, they wear suits but the behaviour is the same.
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#14

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:46 pm

tokeless wrote: Politicians come and go every 4-5 years but those behind the doors of power remain. Billionaires run countries Richard... the illusion is that the politicians run it for us, the people, because that's what democracy is. They don't wear toga's anymore, they wear suits but the behaviour is the same.


I agree in principle to the idea of dynasties. MULTIPLE dynasties that (1) fight to protect and grow their interests, and (2) that are not concrete, easily denoted entities. In other words, an individual might be part of two dynasties without expressly realizing they are in such a situation. An overt example is via marriage where members from two dynasties come together.

Given the above...there is NO "world order". There is no secret club, no illuminati, no witches coven, or group of masterminds that control these dynasties as part of some master plan.

And the people in these dynasties, they do wear togas for well over 4-5 years. And they wear suits. And you will see them as people working in positions of power within the media. A dynasty does not solely consist of a bunch of billionaires. That isn't how dynasties work. A true dynasty with real power has people in different roles of power (politics, business, media, etc.).

The "billionaire" dynasty that supersedes all other dynasties and uses raw economic power to control the world is fantasy. Real power comes from actual dynasties. Billionaires can be crushed in a day by real power. It has happened repeatedly throughout history.

Here is how I see the "billionaire's club". They are a group of very powerful merchants. They are, for the most part, intelligent. They share one thing in common, the desire to protect not just their wealth, but their own merchant empire. Part of this means using wealth to buy influence across multiple dynasties, across those with real, actual power. Those in the billionaire's club share information, they talk and try to figure out how to protect the empires they have built. It is more about self-preservation than being so powerful that you control the world. Billionaires realize how quickly they can lose that wealth.

A final thought. A given billionaire might belong to the "billionaire's club" and at the same time multiple dynasties, through marriage perhaps or for some other reason. This individual will try their best to maintain loyalty to all three. There is no "mega dynasty" with a secret entrance for this individual. When conflicts between dynasties occur, this individual is like anyone else. They try their best to navigate the situation. They don't convene a secret high level meeting of the chosen ones to set some overarching plan in motion to control the fates of all other dynasties.
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