28 months along

#60

Postby biohack9 » Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:09 pm

tokeless wrote:Everyone loves a keyboard hero.


You didn't like getting schooled even though there was a lesson and basic fact in there for the clueless?
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#61

Postby tokeless » Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:14 pm

biohack9 wrote:
tokeless wrote:Everyone loves a keyboard hero.


You didn't like getting schooled even though there was a lesson and basic fact in there for the clueless?


Of course you did.. what do you do for work again?
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#62

Postby biohack9 » Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:22 pm

I don't need to work, I volunteer here trying to explain dopamine to the clueless. Or do you deny that dopamine even exists like paws? lol
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#63

Postby tokeless » Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:38 pm

You volunteer?? It's a public forum. As for dopamine. Of course it exists, but the psychological aspects of this PAWS syndrome are heavily anxiety related.... the worry about brain damage, never getting better, panic attacks etc can be managed better with anxiety management rather than seeking information that supports their fears. Anyway, it is best left to Guru Bio to help these people fixate and stay in their moment. None of which can be changed by understanding brain chemistry. Good luck wise one
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#64

Postby biohack9 » Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:50 pm

tokeless wrote:You volunteer?? It's a public forum. As for dopamine. Of course it exists, but the psychological aspects of this PAWS syndrome are heavily anxiety related.... the worry about brain damage, never getting better, panic attacks etc can be managed better with anxiety management rather than seeking information that supports their fears. Anyway, it is best left to Guru Bio to help these people fixate and stay in their moment. None of which can be changed by understanding brain chemistry. Good luck wise one


Wait a second, that's a strawman fallacy. We're talking about PAWS, not just a psychological symptom of anxiety which is caused by a physical paws (dopamine downregulation). Who are you to say how others can manage better? They want to know WTF is going on with their brains and health, not some scolding from a troll that it's (again) "all in their heads".

Understand brain chemistry is the very thing that you are clueless about! Nice deflection, and I don't need luck because I understand the science of what's going on in PAWS and you don't have to be wise to understand basic biochem. Just because you are clueless and uneducated you don't have to just resort to "it's all in your head" "it's anxiety" when people are actually struggling with physical and neurochemical processes. How pathetic of you.
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#65

Postby tokeless » Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:02 pm

How does the average user benefit from understanding brain chemistry in managing their day to day feelings? What benefit does it provide in coping with their anxiety? You come on here and spout your knowledge but offer little in terms of practical advice other than give it time, maybe 1,2,3 years who knows but as long as you know it's brain chemistry you'll be fine. I guess it keeps you occupied and having a role on here... volunteer that you are. We're just students of your knowledge. When I discuss anxiety with patients, they often say what can I do to manage it? I don't need to know why, I just want to feel better and get on with life.
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#66

Postby biohack9 » Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:12 pm

tokeless wrote:How does the average user benefit from understanding brain chemistry in managing their day to day feelings? What benefit does it provide in coping with their anxiety? You come on here and spout your knowledge but offer little in terms of practical advice other than give it time, maybe 1,2,3 years who knows but as long as you know it's brain chemistry you'll be fine. I guess it keeps you occupied and having a role on here... volunteer that you are. We're just students of your knowledge. When I discuss anxiety with patients, they often say what can I do to manage it? I don't need to know why, I just want to feel better and get on with life.


More strawmanning, since that seems to be your only expertise. Are you that clueless that anxiety is only one symptom of PAWS? Apparently not since you don't even believe in the science of PAWS since you live in a delusional fantasy world.

You've been here long enough to see that TIME is actually the ONLY healer in this misery. And not just bye now live like you're fine no sense even coming to this forum. You are the classic bridge troll. A clueless bridge troll even really.

No I actually HAVE PAWS and have EXPERIENCE in it unlike you!! A poser addictions counsellor troll that doesn't even believe in PAWS yet then sometimes says she does! LOL You're a hack and stuck in some loop from the 60s when weed was like 6% thc. And this is the thanks I get for teaching you about real science and the neurochemistry behind paws which you continue to (sometimes) deny! LOL! Do you even KNOW what d2 receptors do?? Have you ever even have heard about the ECS is and does?? Do you know ANYTHING about the HPA? LOL Didn't think so. Anxiety is everything! lol
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#67

Postby DerJogge » Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:29 pm

tokeless wrote:How does the average user benefit from understanding brain chemistry in managing their day to day feelings? What benefit does it provide in coping with their anxiety? You come on here and spout your knowledge but offer little in terms of practical advice other than give it time, maybe 1,2,3 years who knows but as long as you know it's brain chemistry you'll be fine. I guess it keeps you occupied and having a role on here... volunteer that you are. We're just students of your knowledge. When I discuss anxiety with patients, they often say what can I do to manage it? I don't need to know why, I just want to feel better and get on with life.

How would you classify my ongoing addiction dreams where I dream about past addiction behaviour that is most of the time accompanied by restless sleep and very pronounced symptoms afterwards. I’m seriously asking what I can do to make them go away. I don’t care if it’s PAWS or whatever. What can I do to make them go away. I have no interest at all to smoke weed when I am awake and I don’t fantasise about using it. Why do I keep having them and what is your recommendation for improving my sleep? I keep a sleep schedule, I read a book before sleeping, I don’t do any exercises in the evening, I supplement the right things in the right dosage at the right time.

Why do I still have those dreams after 27 months of clean abstinence. What makes them go away how can I deal with them beside not taking them to serious?

I‘m eager to know what you recommend. As for me I tried everything else and I came to the conclusion that is PAWS and that my brain is still processing my addiction by dreaming about it. I made many improvements in other areas of my life but my sleep is still not restful even after such a long time.
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#68

Postby tokeless » Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:24 am

DerJogge wrote:
tokeless wrote:How does the average user benefit from understanding brain chemistry in managing their day to day feelings? What benefit does it provide in coping with their anxiety? You come on here and spout your knowledge but offer little in terms of practical advice other than give it time, maybe 1,2,3 years who knows but as long as you know it's brain chemistry you'll be fine. I guess it keeps you occupied and having a role on here... volunteer that you are. We're just students of your knowledge. When I discuss anxiety with patients, they often say what can I do to manage it? I don't need to know why, I just want to feel better and get on with life.

How would you classify my ongoing addiction dreams where I dream about past addiction behaviour that is most of the time accompanied by restless sleep and very pronounced symptoms afterwards. I’m seriously asking what I can do to make them go away. I don’t care if it’s PAWS or whatever. What can I do to make them go away. I have no interest at all to smoke weed when I am awake and I don’t fantasise about using it. Why do I keep having them and what is your recommendation for improving my sleep? I keep a sleep schedule, I read a book before sleeping, I don’t do any exercises in the evening, I supplement the right things in the right dosage at the right time.

Why do I still have those dreams after 27 months of clean abstinence. What makes them go away how can I deal with them beside not taking them to serious?

I‘m eager to know what you recommend. As for me I tried everything else and I came to the conclusion that is PAWS and that my brain is still processing my addiction by dreaming about it. I made many improvements in other areas of my life but my sleep is still not restful even after such a long time.


That's a big ask and I get your frustration with your symptoms. You know I can't answer your specific issues, which is likely intentional to slight my point about my work. All I advise people to do who struggle with sleep is to not focus on trying to sleep. If I said don't think of something, it's very likely you will, even if only briefly. This isn't brief for you and again I empathise. I live in the now. I am present and if I feel sh**, down, anxious i accept the state instead of trying to stop it. If I had control over these things, I wouldn't feel this way because who would? I also accept it's temporary and won't kill me, because it won't. I rarely feel these now as I had to change how I managed day to day reactions and life's challenges. Fighting mentally was just making it worse because I couldn't win... which took time and struggle to accept. Now, if I can't sleep, I get up, put the TV on etc and try and just be present, in that I have tried the usual things and it didn't work, so just be. This can lead to feelings of tiredness, so I wait until I know I will get to sleep, even if I usually wouldn't stay asleep.. if that makes sense?
Dreams are the unknown despite the many theories, so my guess as to why is just that. I'd maybe say it's a subconscious 'something' behind it... I still get weed dreams but I never get to actually using it. I lived in the dam and know it very well, but usually by cooffeshop. In the dreams I can't find them or feel lost, but know there's one near. It's always night time and if I find it, I wake up before I use. I reckon it's because I'm done with it, so my brain shuts it down but still plays the memory. The bits before that, I find intriguing because they're weird or just surreal. I have felt the bud, papers and rolled it, but never went past that point. The scary or graphic ones early doors were distressing because they were so real and vivid, but I saw it as healing because when I looked back I can't remember dreaming on weed, so I kind of accepted the weirdness, like an acid trip can be. I don't know your cure fella, if I did people would be paying me to fix them and I would do that for you.. for free. I can only offer my experience, both personal and professional. What I know is anxiety is a multi faceted, multi conscious condition that cripples people... their fears etc are not in their heads as I get accused of saying, which isn't what I'm saying. It's real for them but it is still rooted in their heads and consciousness and sub. Every ache aches more when your anxious or down, things get exaggerated and all of a sudden you feel worse. Add this to coming off and everything gets weird and worse... I apply the same as before, accept it's temporary and will end and it won't kill me. I then focus on now, the things I can change. I don't believe in time framing either... why do it? It's a choice but I don't think it helps, it just keeps you rooted to weed life. If you got out of prison would you count the days as though some indication of you going straight? Suddenly you're still counting after 3 years... I have moved on and just live. I have always believed I'm here for a good time, not a long time... life that is. If you've checked the physical and it's good, it has to be mental.. bio will remind me of neuro chemicals... I think we just approach this differently. Good luck with your life.
Best wishes
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#69

Postby DerJogge » Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:37 am

tokeless wrote:
DerJogge wrote:How would you classify my ongoing addiction dreams where I dream about past addiction behaviour that is most of the time accompanied by restless sleep and very pronounced symptoms afterwards. I’m seriously asking what I can do to make them go away. I don’t care if it’s PAWS or whatever. What can I do to make them go away. I have no interest at all to smoke weed when I am awake and I don’t fantasise about using it. Why do I keep having them and what is your recommendation for improving my sleep? I keep a sleep schedule, I read a book before sleeping, I don’t do any exercises in the evening, I supplement the right things in the right dosage at the right time.

Why do I still have those dreams after 27 months of clean abstinence. What makes them go away how can I deal with them beside not taking them to serious?

I‘m eager to know what you recommend. As for me I tried everything else and I came to the conclusion that is PAWS and that my brain is still processing my addiction by dreaming about it. I made many improvements in other areas of my life but my sleep is still not restful even after such a long time.


That's a big ask and I get your frustration with your symptoms. You know I can't answer your specific issues, which is likely intentional to slight my point about my work. All I advise people to do who struggle with sleep is to not focus on trying to sleep. If I said don't think of something, it's very likely you will, even if only briefly. This isn't brief for you and again I empathise. I live in the now. I am present and if I feel sh**, down, anxious i accept the state instead of trying to stop it. If I had control over these things, I wouldn't feel this way because who would? I also accept it's temporary and won't kill me, because it won't. I rarely feel these now as I had to change how I managed day to day reactions and life's challenges. Fighting mentally was just making it worse because I couldn't win... which took time and struggle to accept. Now, if I can't sleep, I get up, put the TV on etc and try and just be present, in that I have tried the usual things and it didn't work, so just be. This can lead to feelings of tiredness, so I wait until I know I will get to sleep, even if I usually wouldn't stay asleep.. if that makes sense?
Dreams are the unknown despite the many theories, so my guess as to why is just that. I'd maybe say it's a subconscious 'something' behind it... I still get weed dreams but I never get to actually using it. I lived in the dam and know it very well, but usually by cooffeshop. In the dreams I can't find them or feel lost, but know there's one near. It's always night time and if I find it, I wake up before I use. I reckon it's because I'm done with it, so my brain shuts it down but still plays the memory. The bits before that, I find intriguing because they're weird or just surreal. I have felt the bud, papers and rolled it, but never went past that point. The scary or graphic ones early doors were distressing because they were so real and vivid, but I saw it as healing because when I looked back I can't remember dreaming on weed, so I kind of accepted the weirdness, like an acid trip can be. I don't know your cure fella, if I did people would be paying me to fix them and I would do that for you.. for free. I can only offer my experience, both personal and professional. What I know is anxiety is a multi faceted, multi conscious condition that cripples people... their fears etc are not in their heads as I get accused of saying, which isn't what I'm saying. It's real for them but it is still rooted in their heads and consciousness and sub. Every ache aches more when your anxious or down, things get exaggerated and all of a sudden you feel worse. Add this to coming off and everything gets weird and worse... I apply the same as before, accept it's temporary and will end and it won't kill me. I then focus on now, the things I can change. I don't believe in time framing either... why do it? It's a choice but I don't think it helps, it just keeps you rooted to weed life. If you got out of prison would you count the days as though some indication of you going straight? Suddenly you're still counting after 3 years... I have moved on and just live. I have always believed I'm here for a good time, not a long time... life that is. If you've checked the physical and it's good, it has to be mental.. bio will remind me of neuro chemicals... I think we just approach this differently. Good luck with your life.
Best wishes

Thanks for taking your time, I appreciate that. I‘m actually not stressing over my sleep. I mean it sucks but I’m not dwelling about it on a day to day basis. I have phases where my sleep is more restful and there are times like now where it’s not restful and I can see and feel the clear difference as why I’m feeling a lot of symptoms on a daily basis when my addiction dreams flare up.

I’m also 100% sure that I’m not anxient about my sleep. I don’t worry about it or fear to go sleep. 95% of the time I fall asleep in less then 5 minutes and I also sleep through the night since a year. There has been a slow improvement since some time and I accepted my symptoms and don’t fight them.

What I’m trying to tell is the following: you can have a good mindset, you can accept your situation, you can live in the now as much as your life situation allows it but there are things that go beyond my control and those are things like restful sleep. I once read that sleep is the last thing that resolves for many recovering addicts and restful sleep is crucial for your cognition, memory and energy levels and that’s what I also struggle the most with on a day to day basis. I can’t „mindset“ myself into a constant state of having restful sleep and the reason for my sleep still being sub-optimal is because of PAWS. It’s a combination of emotional processing that is still going on and as biohack said, also a neurochemical problem.

I personally don’t think it’s wise to doubt the PAWS process in general when you never experienced it. There is some specific touch to it that life just feels very very different and that the brain isn’t working quite right. It’s like having sand in the wheels and sometimes even stones. The frustration you get from from people like biohack and me is due to several factors. There are so many people doubting that process that a) don’t had an addiction themselves ever b) were lucky enough to never have gone through PAWS c) never fully quit all their addictions and just shifted their addictions and thus never truly started their healing sequence. Let me put it in another way: Imagine you have a constant mild headache on a day to day basis and it just doesn’t go away and persists. There goes a set of symptoms along with it. Nobody can tell you why you have that constant headache and why it’s there. You then find a forum where people report about the same mysterious headache and describe nearly the same symptoms going along with it. There are some people reporting that the headache leaves after about 24 months (+- 12 months) without an apparent reason. Some people have it gone earlier some later. Some start to incorporate the pain in their life as a blessing and grow from it, some constantly fight it. But after all you found the reason for your constant headache and THEN there are people coming to this forum which never had the headache and tell you that you are just having the wrong mindset, that you are just stressing out over a headache that could have left on its own in 3-4 hours when you wouldn’t have stressed about it and wouldn’t be anxient about it. They even question if that headache really exists because they couldn’t find any scientific or empirical evidence that a constant mild headache is even existing and they only experienced headaches for 1-2 hours. Science has to catch up onto it but never fully can because the brain is way to complex to solve things like that in time span of 10-15 years. Yet those people constantly question your headache while you and others are just trying to support each other, share your progress and motivate each other as you all know it’s only temporary and as it will pass after TIME, nobody has found a persistent cure by doing the following.

Do you see where this is going? Do you see how ridiculous the whole PAWS-scepticism and is? Until today we don’t have scientific dissemination on why people have migraines and how to cure them as it’s such a complex topic. Addiction is shattering the roots of the neurochemical and emotional foundation of our brain and body. It’s even more complex then migraine. There isn’t strong scientific evidence on PAWS yet because it’s such a highly complex topic and the independent variables are so high in numbers. We can’t say why people have random headaches and you want hard scientific evidence on a topic that has only been halfway acknowledged as it’s a very new phenomena because people started to connect on the internet by themselves which led to a quantified collection of data and experiences by the community itself as people are comparing their experiences. There is a thread on a forum for people recovering from excessive porn/masturbation which is about 180 pages long and it’s filled with experiences from people suffering from PAWS and some reporting to come out of it. The broad masses wouldn’t even consider masturbation/porn as problem yet but yet there are millions of people out there suffering from its causes. Science hasn’t catched up. The few studies that actually explored the negative effects of it found out that porn is able to elevate dopamine levels into the same spectrum as cocaine for a much longer time. People are becoming addicted to it as teenagers and spend their whole adolescence being addicted to high speed porn and quit after 10 years after frying their dopamine-receptors. Of course some severe cases experience PAWS as they have an insane amount of excessive receptors after abusing their reward system throughout their whole development phase. There isn’t any scientific data and study on this matter yet and still people experience the pain of PAWS. I always cringe when people are begging for scientific evidence of something and only then will they believe and acknowledge that a phenomena exists. Just because science has not catched up yet doesn’t make the problems of those people any less true and real. There was a time where smoking wasn’t considered harmful and then there was a whole generation of people that suddenly had a significant higher chance of getting ill from cancer and other diseases and it took science and society nearly two decades to fully translate those first real experiences of people being ill to the common knowledge that smoking is actually tremendously bad for ones health.

My whole point is very simple but I made the effort to go into the very detail of things: just because there aren’t scientific proofs of weed, porn/masturbation PAWS yet doesn’t mean it’s not able to exist but just know that it’s extremely frustrating to constantly getting your impairment questioned by people that never went through the same as you although you are 100% sure that there is healing going on inside of you that you have barely any control over.
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#70

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:03 pm

DerJogge wrote: Do you see how ridiculous the whole PAWS-scepticism and is? There isn’t any scientific data and study on this matter yet and still people experience the pain of PAWS. I always cringe when people are begging for scientific evidence of something and only then will they believe and acknowledge that a phenomena exists. Just because science has not catched up yet doesn’t make the problems of those people any less true and real.

My whole point is very simple but I made the effort to go into the very detail of things: just because there aren’t scientific proofs of weed, porn/masturbation PAWS yet doesn’t mean it’s not able to exist but just know that it’s extremely frustrating to constantly getting your impairment questioned by people that never went through the same as you although you are 100% sure that there is healing going on inside of you that you have barely any control over.


I understand your frustration, but at the same time the idea is to be skeptical of the science, which as you point out is limited. So to me, saying skepticism is ridiculous comes across to me as ridiculous.

I’m not saying what people experience isn’t real. I’m skeptical of the cause.

Why do you wish to claim certainty of cause and shut down the discussion that maybe there are other causes? Why do you want to censor others with a different opinion? Why do you wish skeptical people to go away?

I understand if you have a headache and someone is saying they don’t believe you are having a headache. But, at least in here that is not what anyone is saying. It’s only questioning the root cause of the issue. It’s like you are 100% certain you know the cause of any given symptom of any individual that claims they smoked weed in the past and or was addicted to porn and now symptom X is recurring.

I’m not skeptical that people are not experiencing the symptoms they report. I’m skeptical that it’s always caused by a previous addiction. That shouldn’t be an issue.
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#71

Postby PAWSsurvivor » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:24 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
PAWSsurvivor wrote: I'll bring this up again, earlier in the conversation you sent me a link about Psychosomatic disorder. Do you know the anxious brain needs to be unwired from fear? The mind works with associations. I had a choice, click on that link and read through symptoms that might put me into a tailspin, or not click on it and let it go. Fortunately, I have now recovered enough to be able to read through such a link without going into panic, even though it did cause some anxiety to read through it. No fault of my own, I don't have control of my unconcious mind and it's anxiety, I only have control of how i react to it once it presents itself. One year ago, I would have had insomnia and would have been highly elevated from that link. Others on this forum may have clicked that link and read parts like "Psychosomatic symptoms may come and go throughout life". In a state of high anxiety and panic, that is simply not helpful. We don't want to read anything about "might last forever". And who are we anyways to diagnose ourselves over google? I'm not a Dr. Even if that link is the truth, why not instead communicate with your own words and couch it in empowerment? Sure some symptoms may last forever, but that doesn't mean it has to be something we can't manage and control. YOU could express that, rather than sending the link.


Thanks for the feedback. As stated previously, I’m well aware of how my participation is sometimes perceived. Duly noted…again. And let me restate, this is a public discussion. I’m not insulting you or calling you names. I’m not criticizing you as a person. In fact, you have noted yourself multiple times that I am supportive, just not in a way that you personally find “empowering” or warm, or however you and others wish to describe it.

You say the success story of brokethehabit has nothing to offer you. I disagree. He just posted and he wrote something that was key to his recovery, that being mindset. I have offered and continue to suggest that mindset is your biggest hurdle.

The evidence? You get anxious to click a link. The mere fact a person offers a link with a title you find threatening sends you into a state of anxiety.

Now, I’m not sure how to couch this next bit. I don’t know the best phrasing or what “banana head” language might appeal to you. And me walking on egg shells to tip toe around your anxious state, well I don’t actually think that is very supportive. The fact you can’t even click a link is abnormal and a phobia. Do those words sound awful? Is using the terms abnormal and phobia not warm enough for you?

If you can’t even click a link, if a link makes you anxious, then you need serious professional therapy to address such a phobia. You don’t need DARE counselors telling you that you have a “banana head”. A phobia can be debilitating. You need serious clinical help.

And expecting the public to accommodate your irrational needs isn’t going to happen. People are not going to be able to read your mind and know you get anxious over a link or that you personally have an issue with how clinical terms make you feel.

Take our relationship. Unless you said something, I would’ve had no idea you get so anxious over a link or that the term psychosomatic strikes you the wrong way. And now what am I to do? Should I accommodate you? Of course I don’t want to intentionally offend, but at the same time I don’t think it is helpful, compassionate, empathetic, or supportive to treat you as some how a person with “special needs”. I don’t think you are in need of special accommodations, right?

Or do you feel that you need special accommodations to function in life?

Tell me, because I struggle with this. Give me the feedback. I prefer to treat you as an equal. I prefer to treat you as someone that doesn’t require special accommodations in a public discussion. Am I wrong?


Well I came back to this thread after a break. I suppose I just can't resist this conversation.

So to answer your question. Clicking a link doesn't send me into a state of anxiety. Reading that I have X symptom which could then lead to Y result is kindling for catastrophizing and for illogical reactions from my unconscious mind.

So yes 2 years ago when I was dealing with electrical zaps, constant headaches, icepicks behind my eyes, DP/DR, and a whole host of other symptoms, how could my mind not go to the fearful place? I felt like I was dieing. I clicked on those links back then, and I don't think it was very helpful. So I don't think I have any phobia about it.

Now after healing a whole lot, I can look at that kind of link with new eyes. I don't think it's helpful though. I can read it and defuse the anxiety. But does it not make sense to avoid unnecessary anxiety in the first place? So going back to what I said earlier, I don't think posting medical links to those in a high anxiety state is helpful. People need to get their medical tests done, when no problems are found, forget the google links, and just live life in an engaged way. I spent a year researching my condition. I only probably made it worse, although I did finally get into anxiety therapy which has been immensely helpful in regaining my life trajectory.

I think Richard to be truthful, if you are not in an anxiety state then I'm not quite your equal in that regard. I don't feel it's wise for me to be reading medical articles on my health right now. The unconscious mind / amygdyla can get triggered with seemingly no context. It's a faster pathway in the brain than the conscious reaction to fear. It's called first fear vs 2nd fear. If I see a car driving into me, I have adrenaline in my system before I can even say "Oh sh**" or instead as a better response "I can handle this". So really, again, if you are not in an anxiety state, and your are dealing with others in one, as much as I would like to say I am your equal, my brain is simply running on a different kind of operating system than yours is at the moment. It's not better or worse though, because my sense of compassion has greatly improved. I know my brain will let fearful stuff go if don't feed it fuel, hence my hesitancy to click on google health links for awhile. I can function without accommodations at present. In fact I have regular talks with my partner about seizures, brain health issues, as she is an EEG technician. I could continue to read those links as i've done it many times before to no positive result. Why aggravate a wound though? You can't recover from a broken leg without some kind of crutch for awhile. I'm ok with that. As long as my trajectory is better. It was a good test for me to click that link. I steeled myself before hand and said anything that is scary in there is not a diagnosis, even if my brain wants to give me sensations out of my conscious control that make it feel true. Even writing about this right now, I got a electrical weird zap in my stomach. Again out of nowhere. Before I would be scared, now I just say "**** it whatever", because I know it's just my unconscious mind / nervous system acting in what it thinks is my best interest.

I'll say it again. This is why Uncommmon is not a recovery forum. I learned that awhile ago. Yes you can say what you want Richard. But look at who's around you. This an open forum that has a majority population of people in recovery. You are in the minority if you are not in PAWS / Anxiety. Imagine you were walking through a building of recovering drug addicts, and you told them to go search on google their health problems. Does that perhaps give you pause to reconsider how you are interacting? Can you couch the truth in kindness? It's an art. Sometimes the kindness comes first before the truth. Build trust, and then deliver what you see as the truth.

Here's how you could reassure someone here or me. "Graham, you have a funny feeling in your head. I know it probably feels awful. Good news is it's almost certainly benign. How do you identify with it? Could you give it a new label so it feels a bit less scary? Science shows that the more calm and positive we are, the less anxiety and sensations we feel. I know you are worried about PAWS. Does worrying help? Is there anyway you can reduce your worrying? I know you could click on a google health link about a symptom, but what if you spent those 5 minutes doing something you loved instead?"

Again no one told me directly to use banana head. I chose it upon suggestion from Curable. To reframe my sensation. I would not expect others to know that. But I would expect others to know I'm suffering from anxiety, and that I should be more focused on building joy in my life than reading medical articles on the internet.
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#72

Postby tokeless » Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:30 am

Imagine you were walking through a building of recovering drug addicts, and you told them to go search on google their health problems.

Is it any better or worse than telling them they have brain damage and it will take years of PAWS to get better. You will feel this way for 2, 3 or more years because that's how long it took me... would that be more helpful? All Richard and I have done is suggested looking at it another way.... but because we can't possibly understand the suffering and the damage people have done to themselves, we were told we are trolls. Just another perspective but anxiety can't always rationalise that or see past their anxiety.
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#73

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:46 pm

Always good to hear from you Graham

PAWSsurvivor wrote:I'll say it again. This is why Uncommmon is not a recovery forum. I learned that awhile ago. Yes you can say what you want Richard. But look at who's around you. This an open forum that has a majority population of people in recovery. You are in the minority if you are not in PAWS / Anxiety. Imagine you were walking through a building of recovering drug addicts, and you told them to go search on google their health problems. Does that perhaps give you pause to reconsider how you are interacting? Can you couch the truth in kindness? It's an art. Sometimes the kindness comes first before the truth. Build trust, and then deliver what you see as the truth.


And I’ll say it again. What you think of as kindness is not kind.

Have you ever watched this? It’s only a short clip of a conference that was held…Don’t get anxious, it’s not a clip on anything medical. It’s a clip of a room full of people that all have social/emotional issues, all wanting to be treated differently in various ways.

https://youtu.be/moWe3rk7LzQ

If I somehow ended up at that conference, I would be in the minority. I certainly would do my best to be kind, but at the same time being kind doesn’t mean trying to accommodate every individual special need. They call it a “point of privilege” but like anyone with a disability it is actually a special accommodation. These people are disabled. They can’t function in normal society.

Like in here, pointing out that maybe this room full of people could benefit by adopting a healthier mindset, most certainly the audience would not be very welcoming. I would understand that, as I understand the reaction in this forum. That doesn’t make my perspective wrong. It only makes my perspective not welcomed.

I’m pointing out a kind truth Graham. That conference isn’t helping anyone. All it is doing is reinforcing to all of those people that they are disabled and that people should treat them as such. A forum where everyone is simply reinforcing the same beliefs is equally not helpful. To be shielded from any opinions or beliefs that doesn’t follow the majority is not helpful, or kind.

Why are me and tokeless in the minority Graham? Because of our opinions. And so without any opinions being offered other than the majority it becomes the blind leading the blind.

Here's how you could reassure someone here or me. "Graham, you have a funny feeling in your head. I know it probably feels awful. Good news is it's almost certainly benign. How do you identify with it? Could you give it a new label so it feels a bit less scary? Science shows that the more calm and positive we are, the less anxiety and sensations we feel. I know you are worried about PAWS. Does worrying help? Is there anyway you can reduce your worrying? I know you could click on a google health link about a symptom, but what if you spent those 5 minutes doing something you loved instead?"

Again no one told me directly to use banana head. I chose it upon suggestion from Curable. To reframe my sensation. I would not expect others to know that. But I would expect others to know I'm suffering from anxiety, and that I should be more focused on building joy in my life than reading medical articles on the internet.


I asked in a previous response if you require special accommodations. The above quote indicates that yes, you are in need of special treatment. But your special accommodation is not readily visible like a wheelchair. Instead, it requires getting to know you and realizing the very special way that you believe is kind, helpful and will bring you comfort.

That type of relationship is built one on one, not in a public forum.

As for building joy in your life, I think you are going about it the wrong way. You are trying to get the world to adapt to your special needs. Look at how you have provided me instructions as to how you would offer to interact with you. How many times will you need to repeat those instructions to others you come across? How many times will you need to have others modify their behaviors to accommodate you so that you can find more joy?

Instead of trying to find more joy by seeking to tell others how they should treat you, how about working on finding more joy regardless of how others treat you?
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#74

Postby PAWSsurvivor » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:50 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Always good to hear from you Graham

PAWSsurvivor wrote:I'll say it again. This is why Uncommmon is not a recovery forum. I learned that awhile ago. Yes you can say what you want Richard. But look at who's around you. This an open forum that has a majority population of people in recovery. You are in the minority if you are not in PAWS / Anxiety. Imagine you were walking through a building of recovering drug addicts, and you told them to go search on google their health problems. Does that perhaps give you pause to reconsider how you are interacting? Can you couch the truth in kindness? It's an art. Sometimes the kindness comes first before the truth. Build trust, and then deliver what you see as the truth.


And I’ll say it again. What you think of as kindness is not kind.

Have you ever watched this? It’s only a short clip of a conference that was held…Don’t get anxious, it’s not a clip on anything medical. It’s a clip of a room full of people that all have social/emotional issues, all wanting to be treated differently in various ways.

https://youtu.be/moWe3rk7LzQ

If I somehow ended up at that conference, I would be in the minority. I certainly would do my best to be kind, but at the same time being kind doesn’t mean trying to accommodate every individual special need. They call it a “point of privilege” but like anyone with a disability it is actually a special accommodation. These people are disabled. They can’t function in normal society.

Like in here, pointing out that maybe this room full of people could benefit by adopting a healthier mindset, most certainly the audience would not be very welcoming. I would understand that, as I understand the reaction in this forum. That doesn’t make my perspective wrong. It only makes my perspective not welcomed.

I’m pointing out a kind truth Graham. That conference isn’t helping anyone. All it is doing is reinforcing to all of those people that they are disabled and that people should treat them as such. A forum where everyone is simply reinforcing the same beliefs is equally not helpful. To be shielded from any opinions or beliefs that doesn’t follow the majority is not helpful, or kind.

Why are me and tokeless in the minority Graham? Because of our opinions. And so without any opinions being offered other than the majority it becomes the blind leading the blind.

Here's how you could reassure someone here or me. "Graham, you have a funny feeling in your head. I know it probably feels awful. Good news is it's almost certainly benign. How do you identify with it? Could you give it a new label so it feels a bit less scary? Science shows that the more calm and positive we are, the less anxiety and sensations we feel. I know you are worried about PAWS. Does worrying help? Is there anyway you can reduce your worrying? I know you could click on a google health link about a symptom, but what if you spent those 5 minutes doing something you loved instead?"

Again no one told me directly to use banana head. I chose it upon suggestion from Curable. To reframe my sensation. I would not expect others to know that. But I would expect others to know I'm suffering from anxiety, and that I should be more focused on building joy in my life than reading medical articles on the internet.


I asked in a previous response if you require special accommodations. The above quote indicates that yes, you are in need of special treatment. But your special accommodation is not readily visible like a wheelchair. Instead, it requires getting to know you and realizing the very special way that you believe is kind, helpful and will bring you comfort.

That type of relationship is built one on one, not in a public forum.

As for building joy in your life, I think you are going about it the wrong way. You are trying to get the world to adapt to your special needs. Look at how you have provided me instructions as to how you would offer to interact with you. How many times will you need to repeat those instructions to others you come across? How many times will you need to have others modify their behaviors to accommodate you so that you can find more joy?

Instead of trying to find more joy by seeking to tell others how they should treat you, how about working on finding more joy regardless of how others treat you?


Theres a difference Richard. Because at that conference, people are embedded in those pronouns, and desiring to continue in what they want to be called. I am on the other hand, looking to move to a place where I can read / tolerate whatever language is used, like i used to be able to. But listen. I had Chronic Pain for a year. A whole year. No relief. Nothing. How desperate do you think a person is to get out of pain at that point. When the science says you can kind of trick your brain to get you out of a pain mental loop by in a sense lieing to yourself, well fine then! I will rephrase what I call my pain signals for awhile, so that my body calms down a bit, and then as the pain shrinks and goes away, it'll be easier to use more universal terminology. It already is. There's lots of stuff I couldn't say before without a spiral, but now I can. Because the feeling of threat from it has been defused.

What I meant to say is that I expect others HERE to know I'm going through anxiety. So yes, on a forum full of people with the same problems, where I went looking for emotional support, I would hope I would be handled more gently than out at work or in my social life.

I've said it I think 3 times now. Yes. This is not the place for that kind of support. You point it out like i haven't mentioned it multiple times already. I was silly to think this was a place for support. But then again, I was in chronic pain all day every day and had no idea of what was happening or where to go, especially since my medical tests all said I was fine. I was in chronic pain. Again chronic pain. It's an incredibly hard experience to live or to understand at all if you haven't been there (and count yourself very lucky if you haven't). So I found this place looking for support. The cards fell how they fell.

I never expected you or anyone to call my pain a banana head. Thats what I have called my pain. The pain is gone now. Thank the creator for that happening. I have continued to say though, SENDING GOOGLE LINKS is generally not helpful to people with health anxiety. Sure, keep trying that approach. See how many people respond well. As you duly noted above, you have some had some critical feedback in that area.

You say I am getting the whole world to adapt to my special needs? Not at all. I went to work all the last two years, during a pandemic, with chronic pain, and mysterious disturbing symptoms. I barely took a sick day. Only about 5 people in my personal life know of my health situation. I went to the gym. I got vaxxed 3 times. I biked to work. I lifted weights. I went to movies. I was social. I paid down 23k in debt. I took care of my parents when my Father went to the hospital. I rehearsed music with my friends. I never ever asked for anyone to give me special treatment other than my close family and friends, when I was very down. As far as I'm concerned, I'm more brave than I ever knew I could be. When I was my worst, I even prayed to God to kill me if he was going to do it. I had had enough, and was ready for death if that was what was going to be my fate. I meant it. I asked to face death. Get this sh** over with already. And it didn't come. I was completely ready for it. Thats bravery. No, Richard, I won't be painted as some sort of weakling.

Here is how I am building joy. I am now credit debt free and saving lots of money every month. I am on a volleyball team. I take 2 dance classes. I am taking a trip across the country in a few months. I've been cooking new meals every week. I'm playing music in the morning. I'm taking guitar lessons again. I'm watching more comedy and less news. I take 5 minutes at the end of the day to be grateful for all I have done. I don't post that here. Because it's not the forum for that either.

So in the end, like I said earlier. I wish you luck in your methods of persuasion. If you have a successful clinical practice, wonderful. You should advertise your results and successes more to build more credibility. I chose Curable and DARE and their methods because of their success rates. And I've continued because I've made progress. I tried for quite awhile to just "live life and ignore it". but I still had problems. I have a good personal friend who went through an anxious spell over years. due to a hospitalization He did lots of therapy and relearned his thinking habits to get past it. And now he's better. So thats the horse i'm betting on right now. It doesn't mean I expect that kind of treatment from anyone else, outside of a therapeutic venue. Which we have decided, is not Uncommon Forum, even though almost everyone here is looking for that.
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