28 months along

#30

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Wed Dec 29, 2021 5:48 pm

PAWSsurvivor wrote:I get to choose the story I tell myself about my sensations. No way I'm going to walk around calling myself Psychosomatic. Not helpful. I have night disturbances as well still where I see occasional flashes of light, unbelievably the condition is called Exploding Head Syndrome. It's benign. But, please tell me do you think that clinical definition is helpful for me? Thats an awful name for a condition. Wouldn't it better to just call it my "light show"? What will induce more calm? Firsthand account, now i can sleep again, because I'm not worried about my "exploding" head. :)


I wouldn’t call you psychosomatic either. You seem to focus in on labels.

I would say that some of your thoughts are psychosomatic. That is different than being psychosomatic. I don’t think it is even possible “to be” psychosomatic or to be a disorder. I would say the symptoms you experience are a result of your thoughts. You even state you know it is psychosomatic, but prefer other terms.

I don’t think it is necessarily better to call something a “light show” same as it’s not necessarily better to call a laceration an “ouchie”. But, this goes to my point about the dentist and the idea of customized treatment. But, in here, in this forum you are not a patient.
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#31

Postby PAWSsurvivor » Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:58 pm

I did derive some reassurance, not enough, but some. Why didn't it work for me? Perhaps because the experience was too visceral at the time. I have said in the past Richard, that I have come around to the fact that this is residual anxiety from an initial withdrawl. I'm not debating that.

Reading the DARE book makes sense to me. Listening to the curable podcast made sense to me. We're only ready when we are ready.

Perhaps the best advice would have been this: "You are 99% likely to be ok. Read a book called DARE, At Last a life, or Hope and Help for your Nerves for a more detailed explanation. Find a mental health professional that can explain how anxiety manifests and how it works. Rest assured you are not alone and there is a way out of this." Perhaps I was too deep in the hole at the time to understand. Perhaps a personal message would have been best. Still, sending Dr. Google links aren't helpful with anxiety. I'll stand by that as well.

"The big difference is that this is a public forum. It isn’t nearly as intimate as the dentist, the therapist, or a counselor trying to customize for you specifically."

Exactly why this shouldn't be the place for primary anxiety recovery. And why it really could benefit from some moderation.

Cheers
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#32

Postby PAWSsurvivor » Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:05 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
PAWSsurvivor wrote:I get to choose the story I tell myself about my sensations. No way I'm going to walk around calling myself Psychosomatic. Not helpful. I have night disturbances as well still where I see occasional flashes of light, unbelievably the condition is called Exploding Head Syndrome. It's benign. But, please tell me do you think that clinical definition is helpful for me? Thats an awful name for a condition. Wouldn't it better to just call it my "light show"? What will induce more calm? Firsthand account, now i can sleep again, because I'm not worried about my "exploding" head. :)


I wouldn’t call you psychosomatic either. You seem to focus in on labels.

I would say that some of your thoughts are psychosomatic. That is different than being psychosomatic. I don’t think it is even possible “to be” psychosomatic or to be a disorder. I would say the symptoms you experience are a result of your thoughts. You even state you know it is psychosomatic, but prefer other terms.

I don’t think it is necessarily better to call something a “light show” same as it’s not necessarily better to call a laceration an “ouchie”. But, this goes to my point about the dentist and the idea of customized treatment. But, in here, in this forum you are not a patient.


Richard you sent me a link about Psychosomatic Disorder. It's only being brought up because of the link you sent.

I used to focus on labels, now I don't, but we are discussing it, so of course it comes up because that has become the subject of our discussion.

I agree, one cannot be those things.
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#33

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:40 pm

PAWSsurvivor wrote:Richard you sent me a link about Psychosomatic Disorder. It's only being brought up because of the link you sent.


Well, I couldn’t find…or even think to search for a “banana head” link. And even if I was able to find a banana head link, I don’t think it compassionate to treat you as a patient, incapable of handling that banana head is a sanitized way of saying psychosomatic.

In my opinion, we are two adults, having an adult conversation. I’m not your counselor. You are not a patient.

Therefore, I posted the link, because in my opinion it is information worth considering. I didn’t, and still do not feel the need to use banana head, when we both are fully aware that it means the same thing as psychosomatic.

And as a public forum, this is not a one to one conversation. As threads develop across the community, there is little value in customizing terms for each member. One member calls it psychosomatic, the other prefers banana head, and another prefers the term “foggy froggies” because it helps them.

Eventually you can’t even hold a discussion with anyone, because you prefer to call something dazzling lights or rainbow sprinkles. Then you have to clarify so people can understand that what you are actually talking about has clinical definitions, but you prefer dazzling lights because of how you feel.
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#34

Postby tokeless » Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:21 pm

Find a mental health professional that can explain how anxiety manifests and how it works.

Anxiety is multifaceted, in that it has psychological and physiological factors. Thoughts or feelings can trigger anxiety or it could be a physical change, such as racing heart, increased breathing that triggers it. As with OCD's, it can be a condition of 'what if'... many on here worry they have damaged themselves, even brain damage. They attend ED or the Gp for bloods, scans... anything that will confirm they are damaged, because when they are told they are normal, they can't accept it, because their anxiety tells them different. Once the physical is excluded, it leaves psychological. Conquering the psychological is the key to managing it. Maybe, some can't be 'cured', but they can better manage it.
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#35

Postby PAWSsurvivor » Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:03 am

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
PAWSsurvivor wrote:Richard you sent me a link about Psychosomatic Disorder. It's only being brought up because of the link you sent.


Well, I couldn’t find…or even think to search for a “banana head” link. And even if I was able to find a banana head link, I don’t think it compassionate to treat you as a patient, incapable of handling that banana head is a sanitized way of saying psychosomatic.

In my opinion, we are two adults, having an adult conversation. I’m not your counselor. You are not a patient.

Therefore, I posted the link, because in my opinion it is information worth considering. I didn’t, and still do not feel the need to use banana head, when we both are fully aware that it means the same thing as psychosomatic.

And as a public forum, this is not a one to one conversation. As threads develop across the community, there is little value in customizing terms for each member. One member calls it psychosomatic, the other prefers banana head, and another prefers the term “foggy froggies” because it helps them.

Eventually you can’t even hold a discussion with anyone, because you prefer to call something dazzling lights or rainbow sprinkles. Then you have to clarify so people can understand that what you are actually talking about has clinical definitions, but you prefer dazzling lights because of how you feel.


Well Richard, I certainly think we have held a discussion. Far too long it seems. The wagons are going in circles. As usual, you can have the last word. Enjoy.
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#36

Postby DerJogge » Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:41 pm

Hey mate,

I‘m also at about 27/28 months but I do feel a lot more symptoms which isn’t unexpected as my addiction started at 17/18 and lasted until I was 24 and there were also a lot of chemical drugs used beside the weed. I also noticed a positive upward trend and I feel 10 times better then at the beginning of PAWS, yet I’m still suffering from derealisation, bad sleep and fatigue. I think for me it all revolves around my sleep as most of symptoms are gone when I have a good night of sleep.

I just wanted to say that I’m impressed with the way you talked to those two people. I personally think it’s completely inadequate to question someone’s recovery in that way and suggesting that all of this is psychosomatic. I stumbled over at least 50 people through my whole recovery that force a strong negative disbelief that something as weed or excessive porn use/masturbation could induce a withdrawal on this scale over such a long time. I think most of those disbelievers aren’t able to feel what PAWS really is like and they project their subjective perception of reality onto everyone else. I think it helped nobody that Richard put up a discussion that you are just suffering from anxiety after smoking a little bit to much of weed.

I know several people that only smoked high grade weed for a few months and got a two year paws recovery process. After all it’s disheartening, disrespectful and dangerous to suggest that PAWS can’t exist with such little consume. It’s pretty essential to know that you are going through PAWS when you want to overcome it. I always fell back into my old habits because I didn’t feel better after 4-6 months and thought how bad sobriety feels like. Thus I think one should be really careful of telling people they are psychosomatic.

But after all I’m sure PAWS will end in a few months. There are just brains that take longer and being health conscious might not actually help getting out of PAWS but as for me, I can’t change that I’m very sensitive and aware of the things happening inside of me. I wish you all the best and hope you will be free soon!!!
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#37

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:51 pm

Just want to share this success story.

viewtopic.php?t=109895&p=928819#p928819

240 months of smoking weed. And at 28 months, no PAWS. Apparently no real issues after 13 months.

Maybe you can learn from Brokethehabit. How did he achieve such success? I wonder if it had anything to do with adopting a “banana head” mindset?
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#38

Postby DerJogge » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:39 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Just want to share this success story.

viewtopic.php?t=109895&p=928819#p928819

240 months of smoking weed. And at 28 months, no PAWS. Apparently no real issues after 13 months.

Maybe you can learn from Brokethehabit. How did he achieve such success? I wonder if it had anything to do with adopting a “banana head” mindset?

Man what exactly is your point? Pulling a dude out of the hat that hasn’t had any cravings since day 1 of quitting after smoking for two decades. There are some people that are just built different and the human brain and body is so complex and individual that you can’t take one subjective experience and translate it onto everyone else. Just because this dude recovered after 13 months while using for 20 years doesn’t mean OP can‘t possibly have Paws a longer time then him while using less. You are hurting every single scientific thumb rule while also ignoring that we barely know anything about Paws from a scientific standpoint in general.

You are a person that simply tries to be right for the matter of being right, there is no empathy, no positive wording or anything else that would indicate me that you are actually have the intention of helping people. You could say the things you are saying but using a positive tone which would send other implications. But you choose not to. You are simply posting a recovery story from another dude and mocking people for being psychosomatic. That’s not helping in any way. I’m also not interest in discussing with you in any way. I just want to point this out for people that will read this in the future and become insecure if they actually suffer from Paws or if they are just psychosomatic. The possible damage such things could cause are beyond your imagination. I do think it’s necessary to reflect if oneself is constantly reinforcing those negative symptoms OR if the symptoms come up by themselves but most of the people that have the will to recover and go this extend have the mental capabilities of intuitively feeling if those symptoms are a healing process like healing a bone or if they are caused by oneself.
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#39

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:00 am

DerJogge wrote:Man what exactly is your point?


That a person that smoked for 240 months posted a success story. Graham might learn something.

DerJogge wrote:You are simply posting a recovery story from another dude and mocking people for being psychosomatic.


You are welcome to your negativity towards me and my opinions. Have at it. Enjoy. But I didn’t mock anyone for experiencing psychosomatic symptoms. In fact, I’m the one who suggested to consider the possibility.

And that symptoms are psychosomatic rather than physiological is positive. I understand why some may prefer to consider themselves physically damaged, but framing the issue as one that is mental rather than physical is a good thing. Maybe you disagree. Okay.

Graham doesn’t like the cold clinical term psychosomatic. He prefers “banana head”. More power to him. However he and his counselors choose to discuss the issue, great. But this is a public forum, and Graham is a smart, 40 year old adult. I don’t think the difference between Graham’s symptoms and whether or not he experiences them is based on whether we use the term psychosomatic or banana head. Do you?

I support Graham. I want to see him recover. In fact, I’d say I’m much more supportive than many. There are plenty of people to simply agree and cheerlead. He has that side of the equation covered. But having someone offer another opinion, one that doesn’t simply align with every other poster is supportive as well.
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#40

Postby PAWSsurvivor » Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:32 am

Richard,

First I want to say it is an unfair comparison you drew. I vaped several bowls of HIGH THC without a tolerance. Who knows how that compares to someone who smokes a joint every day? It's the dose that makes the poison. Even too much water in one sitting will have dire consequences. Brokethehabit and me are two very different people. That's an apples to bananas comparison. Not an apples to apples comparison.

The other point I'll make, is that one month after my anxiety began, I went to a talk by a Neuroscientist. His name is Robert LaPrairie. He studies Cannabis and its effects at the University in my area. In his talk, he said smoking High THC with a sudden cessation, can lead to very bad consequences. He didn't go into the biology of "Why" this happens, he just said this has been a clinical observation. So, I no longer wish to argue with anyone about what the nature of PAWS anxiety is. He studies Cannabis for a living, I believe he is a neurologist. He said these problems come up with High THC cessation. You can argue with him about it if you want. He is way more qualified on this topic than you or me. His words ring in my head though, Cannabis does something not good at too high of a level of THC. The old saying again is "The dose makes the poison" The good news is, it seems people recover.

Thats the past though, all I care about is what helps NOW. So thats where reappraisal comes in.

So no I don't like the term Pyschosomatic. But also no...I don't consider "Bananahead" to be a replacement term. Bananahead is a way of reappraising. Yes I completely understand 100% that Psychosomatic is a clinical definition for a sensation. That doesn't mean I'm going to refer to my head that way. I don't get up in the morning and say "Another day with Psychosomatic Disorder." I get up and say "Hello Bananahead, you're coming with me today as I fully live my life". That works way better for me. And it helps me to pay less attention to it.

The same goes for my night disturbances. Why the hell would any researcher name a Syndrome "Exploding Head Syndrome". Is there any value in calling it that? Is my head exploding? No.The term is completely misrepresentative of the experience. I see flashes of light, sometimes with an auditory sound. Should I go to bed saying to myself "Great, another night of exploding head syndrome" Or "Tonight I will have a little light show". What manner of thinking do you think would cause less anxiety? Or rather, what term is actually more accurate for my condition. As far as I know, in the last two years, my head hasn't exploded one time. Not once. Why would I ever choose to identify with that label, regardless if it's in a clinical medical textbook?

I'd like to now point out what others often point out in this forum. I do think you are supportive, as you are presenting your opinion on what is happening to me in manner that is solution oriented. However, I do think you could work on HOW you present your position to people who are in the midst of suffering. Your words come across as blunt, without being couched in kindness. I'll bring this up again, earlier in the conversation you sent me a link about Psychosomatic disorder. Do you know the anxious brain needs to be unwired from fear? The mind works with associations. I had a choice, click on that link and read through symptoms that might put me into a tailspin, or not click on it and let it go. Fortunately, I have now recovered enough to be able to read through such a link without going into panic, even though it did cause some anxiety to read through it. No fault of my own, I don't have control of my unconcious mind and it's anxiety, I only have control of how i react to it once it presents itself. One year ago, I would have had insomnia and would have been highly elevated from that link. Others on this forum may have clicked that link and read parts like "Psychosomatic symptoms may come and go throughout life". In a state of high anxiety and panic, that is simply not helpful. We don't want to read anything about "might last forever". And who are we anyways to diagnose ourselves over google? I'm not a Dr. Even if that link is the truth, why not instead communicate with your own words and couch it in empowerment? Sure some symptoms may last forever, but that doesn't mean it has to be something we can't manage and control. YOU could express that, rather than sending the link.

So I would also encourage you to heed some of the feedback you are getting. Can you present the same messages in a more empathetic way? You don't have to obscure what you see as the truth, but can you present you position in a way that is more persuasive and kind? I would argue if multiple people are giving you the same feedback about empathy, perhaps its time to question your manner of delivery. This opinion, to quote you, is coming from a smart, near 40 year old adult. I also think you are quite intelligent, I think you could reconsider the method of your communication, especially to the many people here in great fear, and pain. My genuine thanks in your manner of support for us. Good luck in your methods of persuasion.
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#41

Postby Brokethehabit » Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:42 am

DerJogge wrote:Pulling a dude out of the hat that hasn’t had any cravings since day 1 of quitting after smoking for two decades. There are some people that are just built different


After deciding to give up weed it took me several years to really commit myself to it. By the time I actually took the plunge I was disgusted by smoking, sickened by myself, my weakness, the failed attempts, the self-delusion, I literally felt embarrassed every time I lit a joint. The first month without weed was fuelled by this utter hatred and disillusionment (hence zero cravings). The very first day of month two however changed everything. Out of nowhere I got so sick....man, I thought I would not survive the 4-month ordeal that ensued. The physical sickness was so instense that in a sense it traumatized my system into repelling the very idea of smoking ever again. I'm writing all this beacuse reading "no cravings from day 1" implies that I was lucky or tough. I'd argue that - at least for me - it's a matter of mindset but the trauma of going through withdrawals simply rewired me and craving or relapsing are simply not options any more. My wife sometimes asks me whether I feel like smoking a joint at times. The answer is always a definite NO, there is no way I'd sumbit myself to that torture again!
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#42

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:51 pm

PAWSsurvivor wrote: I'll bring this up again, earlier in the conversation you sent me a link about Psychosomatic disorder. Do you know the anxious brain needs to be unwired from fear? The mind works with associations. I had a choice, click on that link and read through symptoms that might put me into a tailspin, or not click on it and let it go. Fortunately, I have now recovered enough to be able to read through such a link without going into panic, even though it did cause some anxiety to read through it. No fault of my own, I don't have control of my unconcious mind and it's anxiety, I only have control of how i react to it once it presents itself. One year ago, I would have had insomnia and would have been highly elevated from that link. Others on this forum may have clicked that link and read parts like "Psychosomatic symptoms may come and go throughout life". In a state of high anxiety and panic, that is simply not helpful. We don't want to read anything about "might last forever". And who are we anyways to diagnose ourselves over google? I'm not a Dr. Even if that link is the truth, why not instead communicate with your own words and couch it in empowerment? Sure some symptoms may last forever, but that doesn't mean it has to be something we can't manage and control. YOU could express that, rather than sending the link.


Thanks for the feedback. As stated previously, I’m well aware of how my participation is sometimes perceived. Duly noted…again. And let me restate, this is a public discussion. I’m not insulting you or calling you names. I’m not criticizing you as a person. In fact, you have noted yourself multiple times that I am supportive, just not in a way that you personally find “empowering” or warm, or however you and others wish to describe it.

You say the success story of brokethehabit has nothing to offer you. I disagree. He just posted and he wrote something that was key to his recovery, that being mindset. I have offered and continue to suggest that mindset is your biggest hurdle.

The evidence? You get anxious to click a link. The mere fact a person offers a link with a title you find threatening sends you into a state of anxiety.

Now, I’m not sure how to couch this next bit. I don’t know the best phrasing or what “banana head” language might appeal to you. And me walking on egg shells to tip toe around your anxious state, well I don’t actually think that is very supportive. The fact you can’t even click a link is abnormal and a phobia. Do those words sound awful? Is using the terms abnormal and phobia not warm enough for you?

If you can’t even click a link. If a link makes you anxious, then you need serious professional therapy to address such a phobia. You don’t need DARE counselors telling you that you have a “banana head”. A phobia can be debilitating. You need serious clinical help.

And expecting the public to accommodate your irrational needs isn’t going to happen. People are not going to be able to read your mind and know you get anxious over a link or that personally have an issue with how clinical terms make you feel.

Take our relationship. Unless you said something, I would’ve had no idea you get so anxious over a link or that the term psychosomatic strikes you the wrong way. And now what am I to do? Should I accommodate you? Of course I don’t want to intentionally offend, but at the same time I don’t think it is helpful, compassionate, empathetic, or supportive to treat you as some how a person with “special needs”. I don’t think you are in need of special accommodations, right?

Or do you feel that you need special accommodations to function in life?

Tell me, because I struggle with this. Give me the feedback. I prefer to treat you as an equal. I prefer to treat you as someone that doesn’t require special accommodations in a public discussion. Am I wrong?
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#43

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:53 pm

PAWSsurvivor wrote: I'll bring this up again, earlier in the conversation you sent me a link about Psychosomatic disorder. Do you know the anxious brain needs to be unwired from fear? The mind works with associations. I had a choice, click on that link and read through symptoms that might put me into a tailspin, or not click on it and let it go. Fortunately, I have now recovered enough to be able to read through such a link without going into panic, even though it did cause some anxiety to read through it. No fault of my own, I don't have control of my unconcious mind and it's anxiety, I only have control of how i react to it once it presents itself. One year ago, I would have had insomnia and would have been highly elevated from that link. Others on this forum may have clicked that link and read parts like "Psychosomatic symptoms may come and go throughout life". In a state of high anxiety and panic, that is simply not helpful. We don't want to read anything about "might last forever". And who are we anyways to diagnose ourselves over google? I'm not a Dr. Even if that link is the truth, why not instead communicate with your own words and couch it in empowerment? Sure some symptoms may last forever, but that doesn't mean it has to be something we can't manage and control. YOU could express that, rather than sending the link.


Thanks for the feedback. As stated previously, I’m well aware of how my participation is sometimes perceived. Duly noted…again. And let me restate, this is a public discussion. I’m not insulting you or calling you names. I’m not criticizing you as a person. In fact, you have noted yourself multiple times that I am supportive, just not in a way that you personally find “empowering” or warm, or however you and others wish to describe it.

You say the success story of brokethehabit has nothing to offer you. I disagree. He just posted and he wrote something that was key to his recovery, that being mindset. I have offered and continue to suggest that mindset is your biggest hurdle.

The evidence? You get anxious to click a link. The mere fact a person offers a link with a title you find threatening sends you into a state of anxiety.

Now, I’m not sure how to couch this next bit. I don’t know the best phrasing or what “banana head” language might appeal to you. And me walking on egg shells to tip toe around your anxious state, well I don’t actually think that is very supportive. The fact you can’t even click a link is abnormal and a phobia. Do those words sound awful? Is using the terms abnormal and phobia not warm enough for you?

If you can’t even click a link, if a link makes you anxious, then you need serious professional therapy to address such a phobia. You don’t need DARE counselors telling you that you have a “banana head”. A phobia can be debilitating. You need serious clinical help.

And expecting the public to accommodate your irrational needs isn’t going to happen. People are not going to be able to read your mind and know you get anxious over a link or that you personally have an issue with how clinical terms make you feel.

Take our relationship. Unless you said something, I would’ve had no idea you get so anxious over a link or that the term psychosomatic strikes you the wrong way. And now what am I to do? Should I accommodate you? Of course I don’t want to intentionally offend, but at the same time I don’t think it is helpful, compassionate, empathetic, or supportive to treat you as some how a person with “special needs”. I don’t think you are in need of special accommodations, right?

Or do you feel that you need special accommodations to function in life?

Tell me, because I struggle with this. Give me the feedback. I prefer to treat you as an equal. I prefer to treat you as someone that doesn’t require special accommodations in a public discussion. Am I wrong?
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#44

Postby biohack9 » Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:57 pm

STOP FEEDING THE RICHARD TROLL.
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