Permanosis

Postby Wildcard » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:03 am

I´m pretty sure alot of you have come across this phenomenon. When you constantly hypnotize the same person over a period of time and start to notice that with or without hypnosis they eventually stay hypersuggestible to you.

This is how Ant described it: "It is being in a constant hypnotic relationship."

I want to get as much information about it as possible from you guys or your experiences with it, because I want to compare it to different conditioning / learning techniques that one comes across in psychology and see alot of similarities.

So if you have anything you can contibute to the subject, such as how long it takes to achieve, how long it lasts, what affects or influences it etc...and maybe even if you have noticed other states a person is permanetly in when you interact with them....just go ahead and write it down.

Thanks!

:)
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#1

Postby djmagic » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:52 am

Wildcard wrote:I´m pretty sure alot of you have come across this phenomenon. When you constantly hypnotize the same person over a period of time and start to notice that with or without hypnosis they eventually stay hypersuggestible to you.

This is how Ant described it: "It is being in a constant hypnotic relationship."

I want to get as much information about it as possible from you guys or your experiences with it, because I want to compare it to different conditioning / learning techniques that one comes across in psychology and see alot of similarities.

So if you have anything you can contibute to the subject, such as how long it takes to achieve, how long it lasts, what affects or influences it etc...and maybe even if you have noticed other states a person is permanetly in when you interact with them....just go ahead and write it down.

Thanks!

:)


after a while i can still get peoples hand stuck to the table.... is is only after a short time after they have been hypnotised....maybe 2 hrs later.....hope that helps... looking forward to what others write here
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#2

Postby skeitel » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:57 am

>> how long it takes to achieve,

It depends of the person. In a couple of cases, about 4h because I take it easy to take them deep. I call it "slow cooking"


>>how long it lasts,

Can't say. One was a client/friend so I could not experiment much, the other one a lover/friend but she went back to another country. I noticed though that this friend seemed to stay in some king of state related to me for a few weeks after an intensive 3 days hypnosis weekend.


>>what affects or influences

I think that the mental state of the person is important. This 3 days weekend intensive experiment made her immediately suggestible to me in many ways (immediate sleep, multiple orgasms, total amnesia, etc) but there were only two glitches, one when she "had something else in her mind" (she explained later) so she didn't obey the "sleep" command right away but with a slight delay, another one when I suggested something she didn't agree with, and although she was quite deep, she said "no!". That was very interesting but I don't know much about it yet. Nobody had refused a suggestion before to me.

>> other states a person is permanetly in when you interact with them

It is a confirmed fact -in my experience- that they remain extremely suggestible to you in and out of the "official state" after intensive hypnosis sessions
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#3

Postby Wallrus » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:44 pm

This is a very interesting subject. Does any one know where there is more information on Permanosis? Perhaps another thread or a book on this subject. I have not heard of it before and I'm very interested in learning more about it.
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#4

Postby penguin from hell » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:47 pm

yes. try Googling "permanosis" first result has a boatload of information.

failure to terminate hypnosis
subject needing more time to orientate
PHS behavior in effect leading to revival of hypnosis
deliberate waking somnambulism

suggestion for hypnotic behavior being perceived as reinduction cue and then subsequent realization of suggested behavior.

individuals who are already highly suggestible before procedures.

just bouncing off possible instances that might constitute as permanosis.
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#5

Postby Anthony Jacquin » Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:48 pm

I don't know where you got all that info - first link seems to be back here asking the question.

Permanosis is a hypnotic relationship that no longer requires anything other than the hypnotist to communicate an idea to a subject and have it taken on board. No induction or effort to deepen a 'state' is used. Just suggestion. Substantial lengths of time can be left between the original hypnotic encounter and the permanosis demonstration.

My usual way into this is to draw the subjects attention to an object or their hand and ask them if they think they can lift it. Generally they cannot.

If as you have outlined Penguin there are many ways of understanding this. However my definition has nothing to do with
'failure to terminate hypnosis
subject needing more time to orientate
PHS behavior in effect leading to revival of hypnosis'

but possibly a little to do with 'deliberate waking somnambulism' and a little more to do with the 'suggestion for hypnotic behavior being perceived as reinduction cue and then subsequent realization of suggested behavior'.

However I am not certain it is perceived consciously as any kind of cue as those I have a permanotic relationship with always seem rather surprised that such oblique suggestions for sticking them have taken effect.

There is no formal length of time to establish such a relationship - often I have established Permanosis after the first session of hypnosis.

Anthony
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#6

Postby penguin from hell » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:48 pm

Anthony Jacquin wrote:
first link seems to be back here asking the question.


I know. Twas a joke. =)

The information following that was just some thoughts I came up with that might possibly fit the criteria of what defines permanosis since Google failed me.

The term seems to have originated with you but I had thought it might be similar to vigilambulism since it was suggested permanosis involved repeated hypnosis.

here's the oh so fascinating excerpt

"Another pathological manifestation was vigilambulism, a peculiar state of permanent half-somnambulism of persons who had been repeatedly hypnotized but who had not been submitted to the regular maneuvers that would terminate their magnetic sleep. Such people seem to be fully awake, but are liable to receive suggestions from anyone who will talk to them." ("Discovery of the Unconscious" by Ellenberger p.118)
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#7

Postby skeitel » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:06 am

penguin from hell wrote:I know. Twas a joke. =)


Anthony "Terminator" Jacquin is not programmed to smile. At least not in this forum ;) You should know it by now!

By the way Anthony, when can we expect to see any of your conclusions/learnings about permanosis? Looking forward to it
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#8

Postby Anthony Jacquin » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:09 am

Come on, hardly the Arnie of mods am I?

I am just having fun exploring what can be done with Permanosis right now. And right now it seems like everything can. Well everything regular hypnotic process can achieve.

Anthony
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#9

Postby Mousetower » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:30 am

I have a friend who I used to hypnotise a lot. It came to the point where I could bring about simple phenomena (stuck body parts, catalepsy etc) with just a passing comment like "Oh no, Gabor, mate. Your feet have stuck to the floor again." It worked like a charm, but it really started to piss him off after a while.
He has since moved to a new town (not because of me, I must add) and I haven't seen him for a couple of months, but when I next visit, I will test this out and report back as to whether or not it still works.
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#10

Postby Anthony Jacquin » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:35 am

Exactly that Mousetower. I expect it to work if you deliver it with the expectation it will, despite the amount of time that has passed.

'Do you think you can lift your hand/bottle/feet up?' is my favorite way in.

Leave just the tiniest hint of doubt in your tone of voice. They get nailed and you pick up again mid post hypnotic act with another suggestion.

Anthony
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#11

Postby Anthony Jacquin » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:17 am

Permanosis has profound implications for covert hypnotists.

People are suggestible. You cannot not suggest. So make your suggestions targeted, timely and only as precise as they need to be.

Anthony
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#12

Postby Anthony Jacquin » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:28 am

penguin from hell wrote:
Anthony Jacquin wrote:

"Another pathological manifestation was vigilambulism, a peculiar state of permanent half-somnambulism of persons who had been repeatedly hypnotized but who had not been submitted to the regular maneuvers that would terminate their magnetic sleep. ("Discovery of the Unconscious" by Ellenberger p.118)


Interesting - another bulism for my phrasebook. Thank you. Different from permanosis. Permanosis does not require repeated hypnosis sessions - although it helps. It would be interesting to see how effective or not a third party could be in giving suggestions to the subject.

When someone is acting on a post hypnotic suggestion to think of a certain card and manages to do this consistently over a couple of days, you might imagine that anyone asking them to think of a card in the same way would get the same response. My experience is they do not. The PHS applies to The Hypnotist only unless otherwise suggested.

I wonder if the Permanotics ability to take ideas onboard as reality is more optimised than average. Vigilambulism suggests it is.

"Such people seem to be fully awake, but are liable to receive suggestions from anyone who will talk to them."

Must make it a nightmare with all this talk of 'flu'.

Anthony






:twisted:
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#13

Postby Wildcard » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:16 pm

I´ve hypnotized a couple of people to the extent that they react to my suggestion even without hypnosis...and it doesnt matter what kind of suggestions I give. With this one guy I just get him to focus on something (doesnt matter what) and I can get him to hallucinate.
I had a talk a long while back with another guy I used to hypnotize about "permanosis"...even though we didnt have a name for it...and we tried to explain what was going on. He told me it wasnt the inductions that had the effect on him anymore, but me just talking to him or him knowing that I wanted to do some hypnosis.
One of the more interesting things I like about permanosis is the fact that it only works for the hypnotist. The subject is not hypersuggestible towards other people. Im not sure, but if I compare permanosis to classical conditioning I would say that the hypnotist anchors the state of hypnosis and everytime the subject sees or hears the hypnotist do something in a certain way then hypnosis is automatically triggered. That would at least explain to me why it only works for the hypnotist....others are not able to fire the trigger, because they are not the same person as the hypnotist.
I see alot of similarities with classical conditioning and think it can be influenced by "how deep" a person goes into hypnosis. The "deeper" the state...the easier it is to condition. Also the more often you induce a certain state (fractionating / repetition) the easier it gets to condition.
Im still wondering though if the super-suggestion maybe also has an effect on "permanosis", too.
I mean it does make sense...if you can condition fear...either by classical or operant conditioning or even by observation...why shouldnt that apply for hypnosis, too?

Just my thoughts :)
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#14

Postby kevsheldrake » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:29 pm

Wildcard wrote:One of the more interesting things I like about permanosis is the fact that it only works for the hypnotist. The subject is not hypersuggestible towards other people.


I've found it works for (mostly) any hypnotists. I think it is more about how suggestions are delivered than who is delivering them. We gave the hypnotic powers to a random on a course (within controlled circumstances, obviously); the first time they said "sleep" they didn't really expect it to work and, of course, it didn't; the second time they said "sleep" they really commanded it and, although their expectation might not have changed, the change in their tonality was sufficient for it to land.

I regularly steal other hypnotists' subjects during our nights out; the subjects don't necessarily know I'm a hypnotist but by delivering the suggestions in the right form they appear to just take.

Kev
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