Models

#60

Postby kevsheldrake » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:52 pm

divrom wrote:
kevsheldrake wrote:LOL. I think you misunderstood. I am interested in finding the 'actual things' that make a difference; I can't claim to have found them yet. We have more work to do before we have something worth sharing.


It really is fascinating how when you get the wrong impression of something I'm saying, I need to consider how I write, because I appear a certain way. Yet, when I get the wrong impression of you, it's because I misunderstood.


You pointed out the perils (if I have understood you correctly) of breaking down 'love' into physical components and processes. Clearly as this thread is about models of hypnosis and not love, in the context of your previous question, "I'm no mesmerist, but unless you're writing a research paper, what's wrong with a bit of magic?", I stated that you gave the appearance (to me at least) that you didn't want to break hypnosis down into entirely non-magical components and processes. Perhaps I have misunderstood and you could explain?

divrom wrote:I must have misunderstood, however, because I'm not sure what you mean by 'the actual things'. It's not clear to me if you mean the things that will work for you (in the same way that John Cleesattel says he tried to whittle down his hypnotic procedure to find the bare essentials), of if you mean you are searching for what is actually happening in the human brain during hypnosis.


Well, the 'actual things' were quoted from one of your posts - "You seem to be giving the impression that you actually believe that you have discovered the 'actual things' that are happening." Does that make it more clear?

When I suggested you misunderstood when I quoted your above statement about 'actual things', it was because I was unaware of where you got that impression. If it's down to how I write, then please highlight the statements I made for you to arrive at this.

divrom wrote:
kevsheldrake wrote:I'll ask again, what's wrong with finding out how the magic works?


Nothing at all, if you think you can do that. (Incidentally, I'd be interested to know why you got the false impression that I was against finding out how the magic works. Try reading more carefully, perhaps.)


"I'm no mesmerist, but unless you're writing a research paper, what's wrong with a bit of magic?"

divrom wrote:Yet, my comments have not actually been about what kind of model one has, as much as the limitations of language around those models (+ a kind of over-confidence in their models) that some seem to impose on another.


Indeed, and I think this was the inspiration for the thread. My opinion was that discussing the components of models with novice hypnotists as if they were real was a bad idea. As I've stated before, I see value in the use of models, but I see problems when they are stated as if they are real.

Kev
Last edited by kevsheldrake on Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#61

Postby divrom » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:05 pm

Kev, 'actual things' was a quote of you:

kevsheldrake wrote:Personally, I think exploring what hypnosis is and why it occurs is a good thing. Rather than taking the magic away, I see it as distilling the magic into the actual things that make a difference.


Nevertheless, I think we've been mocked out of this discussion for our pedantry - and rightly so.

Thanks for the discussion. I'm now off to slaughter more virgin sheep in front of my shrine to Erickson.
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