Is it wrong to be registered with two therapists?

Postby Herbie306 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:55 am

Hi,

I've been registered with my current counsellor for a few years, though have not seen them for some months due to funding issues etc.

Someone (I'll call them 'D') suggested that I visit my GP and request CBT. However my initial thoughts were that this was 'unethical' in some way. D believes that if I haven't sorted my issues with my current counsellor in all this time, then it's time to try another approach.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks.
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#1

Postby Candid » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:52 pm

Good morning, Lady Herbert!

You get what you need wherever you can get it until you don't need it any more and your focus is on generalised suffering and what you can do about it. That's the point of healing.

I'm with D in that "a few years" sounds way too long for something to click into place, but what would I know? What would D know? And scariest of all, what would your current counsellor know?

Your own soul knows what you need and how to get it. You're the ultimate judge of your own life experience.

There's nothing unethical about eating meat and vegetables. Personally I love CBT for its pragmatism. I love EMDR for its raw 'under the radar' power. I take wisdom where I find it and when I encounter what my mind considers arrant stupidity I toss it out. I'm grateful to everyone who's ever contributed to our present, highly sophisticated understanding of the human psyche, and that's an area that can only keep on improving in quality. We're all highly motivated to find The Answers to human happiness.

And who's got them? You have! You're the final arbiter of what feels good and what feels bad. You could show someone a minute-by-minute account of your life so far and they still wouldn't know what your life is about.

my initial thoughts were that this was 'unethical' in some way.
Candid divines self-doubt. A feeling that one is somehow not entitled to take this human experience by the throat and demand that it deliver... whatever it is you want.

There's a beautiful quote by Marianne Williamson, often wrongly attributed to Nelson Mandela because he used it in a speech.

We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, fabulous, talented? Actually, who are you not to be? Your playing small doesn't serve the world.

Your life experience is whatever you make it, Herbie. Don't ever be afraid to take whatever you need to make it work for you.
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#2

Postby Herbie306 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:28 pm

Thank you
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#3

Postby Herbie306 » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:31 am

Candid wrote: Your own soul knows what you need and how to get it.

OK, here goes... I had a wild idea about a month ago to give up chocolate for Lent; not for religious reasons, but because I've lived on the stuff forever and it doesn't do me any good when I eat it in place of healthy food.

My issue is that during this time my emotions have begun crashing down on me. It's as if I'm grieving for everything I previously haven't been able to; I'm crying like a baby, I want my mum, I'd do anything to be comforted and I'm finding the whole thing pretty scary. If I had to say which approach I needed right now, I'd say it was primal therapy (or something along those lines).

On the other hand, I know in my heart that EMDR is something I need to try. It seems as though it will help me to get in touch with some of the issues where I've previously been hitting brick walls. If I feel suicidal, it's because I've had as much as I can take of the panic / shame / trapped feelings / sleep issues etc, and EMDR or some other body-oriented therapy seems to be the answer to these symptoms (though in the past I've always thought they must be too good to be true - magic wands don't exist. Do they?)

I know Rogerian therapy doesn't touch me; I can talk until I'm blue in the face and nothing will shift.

I have a whole shed-load of negative messages from childhood which I've been trying to deal with in therapy (using CBT etc), though, again, it seems to stay at head level. I've thought about being hypnotised but I'm not sure I know enough about it.

Though maybe I don't need therapy at all? Maybe I just need a big kick; to count my blessings, go out and help others more, live on my own and support myself?

There's nothing unethical about eating meat and vegetables.

I previously thought they would clash with each other :?
Though thinking about it, as long as I use one therapy at a time and inform my current counsellor if and when I return, there shouldn't be a problem.

A feeling that one is somehow not entitled to take this human experience by the throat and demand that it deliver... whatever it is you want.

I think this is where I've been going wrong all my life; I seem to float around accepting stuff instead of doing this - over the years, I've gradually lost my fighting spirit.

There's a beautiful quote by Marianne Williamson, often wrongly attributed to Nelson Mandela because he used it in a speech.
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, fabulous, talented? Actually, who are you not to be? Your playing small doesn't serve the world.

Thank you for this. I think I'll print it out and put it on my wall to remind me.

Your life experience is whatever you make it, Herbie. Don't ever be afraid to take whatever you need to make it work for you.

:cry: Thank you x
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#4

Postby Candid » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:23 pm

Hi again Herbie

Herbie306 wrote:during this time my emotions have begun crashing down on me. It's as if I'm grieving for everything I previously haven't been able to; I'm crying like a baby, I want my mum, I'd do anything to be comforted and I'm finding the whole thing pretty scary. If I had to say which approach I needed right now, I'd say it was primal therapy (or something along those lines).
I thought you were going to say the approach you needed was Dr Cadbury's! I'm glad you've made the connection between addiction and past pain. We develop addictions to soothe our Problems, so when we try to put the brakes on we're confronted with everything we don't want to face.
in the past I've always thought they must be too good to be true - magic wands don't exist. Do they?
There are a number of them! In the early 90s I was a guinea-pig for Jacob Liberman's colour therapy, administered by a rebel optometrist here in Oz. (Liberman is American.) I was investigating on behalf of the magazine I was working for and was stunned by its effect on me, so my published report swamped the optometrist with eager clients.

The treatment involved shining coloured lights into a person's eyes at varying flash rates. I found the results quite overwhelming. It might have been different if I'd had more than one session, ie. if I'd been on a course of treatment. As it was, I just knew this was a potent way of bringing unresolved issues to the fore.

One of my colleagues has moved on from psychotherapy to EMDR, so I've been a guinea-pig for her too but over a longer time. It's certainly gentler than colour therapy. Naturally my friend (since the 80s) knows my 'stuff' and the optometrist didn't, which might skew the data in her favour. In my experience of EMDR there's no feeling of re-experiencing primal emotions or having past traumas come up and smack me in the face (which was the case with colour therapy). I suppose it could also be claimed that the colour therapy had already ripped out the worst of it.

One thing to bear in mind is that therapists of any flavour have come from varying backgrounds and experience. For example, my friend didn't (and couldn't, and wouldn't want to) abandon everything she knew about psychotherapy when she started practising EMDR. Generally speaking, a therapist with more years of practice behind her is going to bring far more to the experience than someone who graduated last week. And those who've been around for a while have always investigated many other ways of working, integrating what they perceive as effective into their work. So you're never going to get the same kind of treatment from any two therapists of any kind.
I know Rogerian therapy doesn't touch me; I can talk until I'm blue in the face and nothing will shift.
In light of the above I would say it depends which Rogerian therapist you're talking to. Also it depends how many shifts have taken place in you since your previous encounter with therapy.

You say you know talk therapy doesn't work. I'm sure you're aware of this, but for the benefit of any lurkers I'll point out that the things we know have more impact on our lives than any external cues ever will. Therefore talk therapy is a waste of time for you.
I've thought about being hypnotised but I'm not sure I know enough about it.
... and that might be a good thing, but only if you go into it at least 50 per cent convinced it's effective.

To the untrained eye :lol: I and (not-so-coincidentally) the majority of people in my contacts book look like tree-hugging new agers. A significant number of us have degrees or doctorates as well as a healthy dose of cynicism. Time and again one of us will start an anecdote: "Something weird happened with one of my clients..."

Conversely, every now and again I meet Mr or Ms Cynical Pragmatist, those people who trust only what they can perceive with at least one of their five senses. My best friend is Chief Pragmatist; perhaps that's why she's my best friend. I often find myself envying the CPs because their lives and their decision-making look so uncomplicated to me. It works for them, too, lucky devils. They immediately discount any psychic experience as coincidence; in fact my best friend would tell you she's never had a psychic experience. Just like your knowledge of talk therapy, I know I could never be a pragmatist without some kind of lobotomy.
Though maybe I don't need therapy at all?
When you get to "I don't need therapy at all" without the maybe and the question mark, it will be the truth. Whether you can get there on your own is another matter, because usually it takes outside factors to change our minds, and a good talk therapist would question your ideas about yourself. For example:
Maybe I just need a big kick; to count my blessings, go out and help others more, live on my own and support myself?
What do you mean by a big kick? If you mean a wild sexual experience, an acid trip or a thrilling car chase, maybe you do. If (as I suspect) a "big kick" involves a heavy boot aimed your way... Ouch! You've already had too many of them. You need a warm hug more than you need another dose of violence.

Count your blessings? Yes, when noticing what's good in your life lifts your spirits. If there's any suspicion of "Herbie you ungrateful brat, what's the matter with you?" -- again, that's an attack on yourself.

Go out and help others? Again, lovely stuff. When it arises spontaneously almost all of us find it boosts self-esteem. But (always a but!), could it mean "I'm not worth much unless I'm doing something for someone else. Others matter more than I do. What a selfish person I am!" etc.?

Living on your own and supporting yourself? Fabulous, if you're up to it. If you suspect you're not yet, don't even consider it. It sounds a bit hermit-like, too. Are you unworthy of others' support? Do you realise supporting and being supported are what connects our species?
I previously thought they would clash with each other
I reckon if two or more therapies clash, one of them isn't right for you. You don't need to know which of them actually worked, you only need to know something did.
Though thinking about it, as long as I use one therapy at a time and inform my current counsellor if and when I return, there shouldn't be a problem.
If I were your therapist a statement like this would inspire me to ask whether you were concerned about offending me.
I think this is where I've been going wrong all my life;
What if I told you -- and kept telling you -- that you've been going right all your life and always will? That the challenges in your life were put there so you would experience the joy of overcoming them? That you couldn't be happy if you'd never been sad? etc.
I seem to float around accepting stuff instead of doing this - over the years, I've gradually lost my fighting spirit.
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with acceptance. It's a big part of Buddhism as well as getting a mention in AA's serenity prayer. So when (not if) you look over your life with new eyes, you'll see you've had masses of experience and strength in the area of acceptance. Furthermore, you'll see your spirit moved you to accept some things and fight others; and that perhaps it looks as though it didn't always discriminate too well between the two, but that you ended up where you were headed anyway.

If acceptance means "I've got other people's footprints all over me", we have some work to do.

Do you believe in homoeopathy? I do. A small targeted dose of what ails you, for some inexplicable reason, effects a cure. What if life in general were treating you homoeopathically? If your thoughts about "a big kick" were because just one more bit of violence would activate your violence-immunity?
I think I'll print it out and put it on my wall to remind me.
It's from A Return To Love by Marianne Williamson. You could easily find the whole quote on the internet, or get a copy of the book. HarperCollins New York published it in 1992 and there are now several editions.
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#5

Postby Herbie306 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:26 pm

Hello,

Thank you, as ever, for providing me with some thought-provoking feedback.

Wow - the colour therapy treatment sounds very potent! :shock: How did you deal with the after-effects of it?

I would say it depends which Rogerian therapist you're talking to.

Yes, you're right. Apologies, I take back what I said about this. I think what I'm trying to say is, for it to work for me, I need a therapist who I feel understands me, who is on my wavelength. Someone who doesn't just listen and nod politely, but really 'gets' my stuff, and they seem to be one in a million.

... and that might be a good thing, but only if you go into it at least 50 per cent convinced it's effective.

I think if I were to try hypnosis or another new therapy, I'd want to see their credentials and, ideally, have someone I trusted to refer me; the last thing I'd want is to turn into somebody's party trick! :oops:

What do you mean by a big kick? If you mean a wild sexual experience, an acid trip or a thrilling car chase, maybe you do.

:lol: All of the above would make for one heck of a memorable weekend!! :lol:

If (as I suspect) a "big kick" involves a heavy boot aimed your way... Ouch! You've already had too many of them. You need a warm hug more than you need another dose of violence.

Yes. Thank you xx

If there's any suspicion of "Herbie you ungrateful brat, what's the matter with you?" -- again, that's an attack on yourself... "I'm not worth much unless I'm doing something for someone else. Others matter more than I do. What a selfish person I am!"

Hey, how did you get inside my head without me noticing?!? :? :shock:

Are you unworthy of others' support?

Can I have an easier question please??
Do you realise supporting and being supported are what connects our species?

Yes, I do, though receiving it unconditionally is an alien concept to me.

If I were your therapist a statement like this would inspire me to ask whether you were concerned about offending me.

Guilty as charged, my Lord.

What if I told you -- and kept telling you -- that you've been going right all your life and always will? That the challenges in your life were put there so you would experience the joy of overcoming them? That you couldn't be happy if you'd never been sad? etc.

This idea will take a while to sink in.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with acceptance. It's a big part of Buddhism as well as getting a mention in AA's serenity prayer.

Yes, I remember that prayer.

So when (not if) you look over your life with new eyes, you'll see you've had masses of experience and strength in the area of acceptance. Furthermore, you'll see your spirit moved you to accept some things and fight others; and that perhaps it looks as though it didn't always discriminate too well between the two, but that you ended up where you were headed anyway.

This is a bit mind-blowing.

If acceptance means "I've got other people's footprints all over me", we have some work to do.

Oh dear. I'm afraid I have a few.

Do you believe in homoeopathy?

Yes. I have a friend who is a homeopath.

What if life in general were treating you homoeopathically? If your thoughts about "a big kick" were because just one more bit of violence would activate your violence-immunity?

I'm unsure what to think about this.

It's from A Return To Love by Marianne Williamson. You could easily find the whole quote on the internet, or get a copy of the book.

Thank you. I'll have a look.
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#6

Postby Candid » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:02 am

I love your sense of humour, Herbie. :heart:

Wow - the colour therapy treatment sounds very potent! :shock: How did you deal with the after-effects of it?
Thank you for a very perceptive question. I hesitated to tell you because I'm not proud of it, but
1) This is my mate Herbie asking
2) I believe I'm anonymous here
3) The following didn't get anywhere near publication

To answer: I snivelled through the session and slammed the door on my way out. I went back to a hotel room, because the rebel optometrist lived several hundred miles from where I and the magazine were based. My sleep that night was punctuated by flashes of the worst of the anger-producing scenarios I'd ever been involved in. Consequently I was late checking out. The cleaner who first knocked then let herself into my room got a blasting. (I hope she's recovered by now; it was about 20 years ago.) While I was lugging my overnight bag to the railway station, the rebel optometrist drove past and tooted his horn. I seem to have blanked my response but I know it carried the energy of sticking two fingers up.

My apologies to all concerned.

for it to work for me, I need a therapist who I feel understands me, who is on my wavelength. Someone who doesn't just listen and nod politely, but really 'gets' my stuff, and they seem to be one in a million.
If your maths are correct there must be six others in the world right now, but I think it's closer to 7.5 in a million and one of them is within striking distance of wherever you are. (I wish with all my heart that I was that one.) Let's switch on your intuition so you can track her down. Hahaha, I just ruled out 50 per cent of the population so we're now up to 15 in a million. The odds are improving all the time.
the last thing I'd want is to turn into somebody's party trick!
I once played this role for an inexperienced EFT practitioner and trust me, it's not even on the list of things you want!
Hey, how did you get inside my head without me noticing?!?
I'm one of 15 in a million.
Candid wrote:Are you unworthy of others' support?

Herbie306 wrote:Can I have an easier question please??
No, but your question is more than adequate as a reply.
Candid wrote:Do you realise supporting and being supported are what connects our species?

Herbie306 wrote:Yes, I do, though receiving it unconditionally is an alien concept to me.
That's gut level. Your intellect knows better, right?

Next time you've got X people who need your empathy and concern, make sure Herbie306 is top of the list. The first hour (at least) of every day must be devoted to your own needs.
Guilty as charged, my Lord.
And yet, concern about giving offence is an effort to avoid guilt. It's vital that we consistently honour our own feelings until it becomes automatic. Then we're 'clear', and can stop flailing about between the unholy trinity: weary self-censoring, endless apology, stuck in damage control.

You've been going right all your life and always will. The challenges in your life were put there so you would experience the joy of overcoming them. You couldn't be happy if you'd never been sad. In any given moment you're either on the verge of a life-changing breakthrough or delaying heaven.

Candid wrote:So when (not if) you look over your life with new eyes, you'll see you've had masses of experience and strength in the area of acceptance. Furthermore, you'll see your spirit moved you to accept some things and fight others; and that perhaps it looks as though it didn't always discriminate too well between the two, but that you ended up where you were headed anyway.

Herbie306 wrote:This is a bit mind-blowing.
That's what I'm here for.
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#7

Postby Herbie306 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:48 pm

Herbie wrote:Wow - the colour therapy treatment sounds very potent! :shock: How did you deal with the after-effects of it?

Candid wrote:Thank you for a very perceptive question. I hesitated to tell you

Apologies if I put you on the spot. I only asked because I know what it's like to be knocked sideways over something when I'm least expecting it, and I really struggle when this occurs. This is one of the reasons I'm wary of new therapists.

If your maths are correct there must be six others in the world right now, but I think it's closer to 7.5 in a million and one of them is within striking distance of wherever you are. (I wish with all my heart that I was that one.) Let's switch on your intuition so you can track her down. Hahaha, I just ruled out 50 per cent of the population so we're now up to 15 in a million. The odds are improving all the time.

I never was very good at Maths at school, so I'm not getting into a debate about this, though I guess you know what I was trying to say.

Herbie wrote:the last thing I'd want is to turn into somebody's party trick!

Candid wrote: I once played this role for an inexperienced EFT practitioner and trust me, it's not even on the list of things you want!

Oh dear! No, I can gather that would be pretty horrible for you. Some years back my then boyfriend suggested I be hypnotised by a trainee friend of his, though as much as I felt it was the right therapy for me, I didn't trust either of them not to mess with me.

Herbie wrote:Hey, how did you get inside my head without me noticing?!?

Candid wrote:I'm one of 15 in a million.

No, I think you might be one in 15million :? :lol:

You've been going right all your life and always will. The challenges in your life were put there so you would experience the joy of overcoming them. You couldn't be happy if you'd never been sad. In any given moment you're either on the verge of a life-changing breakthrough or delaying heaven.

I was always told that if there was two ways of doing things, I'd always choose the wrong one and that I can never do anything right. I can see where you're coming from (it reminds me of 'the Secret's' philosophy), and I'm not arguing, but I'm really struggling with this. I'm here asking for advice on new therapies because I can't deal with my 'challenges'. I can't have an interview or a relationship without freaking out. I shut myself off from people until they think I'm not bothered, but I feel so lonely. I exist, Candid, and I can't stand it any more. I don't know whether it is a big boot, a shake, a hug or a wild weekend that I need, but anything would be better than being like this.

Thank you very much for your input, it really is appreciated and it has helped me to become aware of what it is I need to deal with. I'll look into EMDR etc.
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#8

Postby Candid » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:06 pm

Some years back my then boyfriend suggested I be hypnotised by a trainee friend of his, though as much as I felt it was the right therapy for me, I didn't trust either of them not to mess with me.
You have a good instinct for self-preservation. I wouldn't want a trainee messing with my head, either! If hynotism appeals to you, maybe you could call a few of them and have a chat. I reckon you would know which, if any, was right for you.
I was always told that if there was two ways of doing things, I'd always choose the wrong one and that I can never do anything right.
The people who told you that were wrong about you. In fact it wasn't even about you, it was about them.

The trouble was not that they said it to you, it was that you internalised it. And I know they didn't just say it once, they said it lots of times in a number of ways -- so as patently illogical as it is, you've still got it lodged in your gut.
I can't deal with my 'challenges'. I can't have an interview or a relationship without freaking out.
Let's just say that for a very long time you've been operating in the world with the core belief "I'm always wrong". You go into a dress shop and consider two dresses, and you really like the red one so you either buy the blue one or go away empty-handed. That sounds like a trite example but I know you're smart enough to get it.

Being "always wrong" guarantees an extremely difficult and painful experience of life. It hammers the instinct out of you. You're never quite certain whether you're dealing with friend or foe. "It seems like this person is being rude to me but I'm always wrong so I'll let them go on saying offensive things and see how it goes." There's some kind of disagreement between a group of people and "I'm always wrong" so you apologise to everybody. An interviewer asks whether you can do something and "I'm always wrong" so you say not very well, or you might even say yes, I can do that, but you can't meet the interviewer's eyes when you say it because your gut's still saying "I'm always wrong".

Other people pick up on someone who's "always wrong". That makes you a soft target for every kind of undesirable and I feel very sad to think of my mate Herbie struggling through life with such a massive burden.

This "always wrong" they dumped in you is impossible to live with. You'll be fending off people with all the right intentions towards you, because you're "always wrong" and if these people approve of you, they must be wrong as well. At least, they must be wrong about you. Right?

So all your life long you've been trying to figure out what's right, and no sooner do you find an answer than "I'm always wrong" kicks in and you drop whatever it is and go on looking for what's right. Do you see how this quest is doomed to failure until you get "always wrong" out of your gut?
I shut myself off from people until they think I'm not bothered, but I feel so lonely.
Of course you do! You're living a lie, sweet Herbie, and the lie is that you're "always wrong".

These people who told you that if there were two ways of doing things you would always pick the wrong one: Are they still around? Do you have regular contact with them? Do they still say or imply that you're always wrong? How do you feel after you've seen them?

Because my guess is that in your efforts to get rid of the curse they put on you, you've given them plenty of fuel. Bad relationships, one traumatic experience after another, failed interviews, compromised immune system... Poor old Herbie. She never could get anything right.

It's a lie, Herbie. It wasn't true when they said it, it isn't true now, and it's never been true.

Now I know you haven't thrown back your shoulders and braced yourself to go out and grab the world by the balls, just because old Candid has pointed out that you've been right far more often than you've been wrong. I hope you've felt at least a flutter of the truth in your mind, maybe even a bit of excitement that life could get a whole lot better than it has been, but that lie is still sitting in every cell of your body. That's because your whole way of thinking about yourself every minute of every day for years and years and years has put it there.

I promise it won't take that long to get rid of it. You've shed several hundred cells and maybe a hair or two since you started reading this post. They're renewing themselves all the time, particularly overnight. You can feel a bit more optimistic tomorrow, terrific within a week or two, and like a whole different person (leading a completely different life) 12 months from now.

That could be scary. As painful as living the lie has been, you're still here. If we actually could wave a magic wand and banish "always wrong" tonight... well, who would you be? You've been "always wrong" for ever, right? You're used to that. You've adapted to it. You don't know any other way to be. My guess is this is where talk therapies have always failed you. That could happen again.

My suggestion is that you open a new document and start listing everything that's right about you. I want you, every day, to write at least three things you got right that day.
Someone on the Uncommon Forum thanked me for a post I wrote.
I made a cake and it was delicious.
[Someone] laughed at my joke.
I had a feeling about [whatever] and I was right.
I guessed how long it would take me to get to [wherever] and I arrived right on time.
I was right about the weather today.
I always believed I could be happier and I was right.

Let's collect as much evidence as we can that you're right most of the time. It's going to take some time and persistence, but once you make it a habit it's going to be very much easier than anything you've done so far. Get hooked on feeling good and celebrating Herbie's rightness. Five dedicated minutes a day, and as often as you think of it at other times.

We're not recording anything you get wrong. Everyone gets stuff wrong. People who know they're mostly right don't get upset and defensive when they put two and two together and get a pillowcase. They just laugh. Silly me. What made me think that?

So maybe you had a feeling you shouldn't go to this party and you were right. It was a bad experience. That's not a reason to smack yourself, it's just more evidence that you can trust your own knowing. If you hadn't gone to the party you wouldn't have known you'd been right.

If you left the party as soon as you felt something was off, congratulations! You'll do that more and more as you keep practising.

That's a fair bit to take in, so I'll leave it there. If you have a hunch I care about you, guess what? You're right again! And if you suspect I might have fought a similar battle in my life...
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#9

Postby Herbie306 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:18 pm

Blimey, you don't call yourself Candid for nothing, do you?!? Thank you so much though, I needed to hear it.

I've tried working with it, I really have, and I do think I'm a lot stronger than I used to be. Years ago, in the middle of a session, my therapist left the room after telling me she "needed to get something from the garage" (I wasn't impressed!!). She returned with a huge hammer in her hand, passed it to me and told me to hold it in the air; it helped me to realise what all this was doing to me - the 'weight' I was carrying.

Herbie wrote:I was always told that if there was two ways of doing things, I'd always choose the wrong one and that I can never do anything right.

Candid wrote:The people who told you that were wrong about you. In fact it wasn't even about you, it was about them.

I know this at a head level.

The trouble was not that they said it to you, it was that you internalised it. And I know they didn't just say it once, they said it lots of times in a number of ways -- so as patently illogical as it is, you've still got it lodged in your gut.

Yes, it was pretty constant... and yes, that's about the size of it.

You go into a dress shop and consider two dresses, and you really like the red one so you either buy the blue one or go away empty-handed. That sounds like a trite example but I know you're smart enough to get it.

This is spot on. Or I buy the pink one because my friend's bought that one; other people make better decisions than me, so if I copy them I can't go wrong. (From "X always looks nice, why can't you be like her?" etc)

Being "always wrong" guarantees an extremely difficult and painful experience of life. It hammers the instinct out of you.

Very true. In my old job, I used to be able to organise things and make decisions in a flash, though I've never been able to understand why I'm the complete opposite in my personal life. I guess this explains it to an extent as it's as if I'm not 'me' when I'm working - I'm responsible to my bosses etc, not to my previous caregivers. (Does that make any sense?)

You're never quite certain whether you're dealing with friend or foe. "It seems like this person is being rude to me but I'm always wrong so I'll let them go on saying offensive things and see how it goes." There's some kind of disagreement between a group of people and "I'm always wrong" so you apologise to everybody. An interviewer asks whether you can do something and "I'm always wrong" so you say not very well, or you might even say yes, I can do that, but you can't meet the interviewer's eyes when you say it because your gut's still saying "I'm always wrong".

Again, spot on. I'd never really thought about it like this.
Re interviews etc - I was initially talking about the panic, but this is a big part that I hadn't realised. I always feel 'wooden' when I'm answering questions and this explains it.

This "always wrong" they dumped in you is impossible to live with. You'll be fending off people with all the right intentions towards you, because you're "always wrong" and if these people approve of you, they must be wrong as well. At least, they must be wrong about you. Right?

Yep. When someone tells me I've done a good job or that I'm a nice person etc, I shrug it off and want to scream at them "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!"

So all your life long you've been trying to figure out what's right, and no sooner do you find an answer than "I'm always wrong" kicks in and you drop whatever it is and go on looking for what's right. Do you see how this quest is doomed to failure until you get "always wrong" out of your gut?

Yes, I do.

These people who told you that if there were two ways of doing things you would always pick the wrong one: Are they still around? Do you have regular contact with them? Do they still say or imply that you're always wrong? How do you feel after you've seen them?

Two aren't around now. Two are, but I don't have much contact with one of them (my choice). The other (who was the person who initiated it (ie the rest just followed suit): I phone her every few days. I've learnt to shut a lot of it out over the years, though if I'm stressed etc it still gets to me and I'll put the phone down in tears. I love her, but it's as if what I say / feel doesn't hold any weight whatsoever "It's not that Herbie... What on earth possessed you to do that? You don't want to do X, go and do Y" and so it goes on.

Because my guess is that in your efforts to get rid of the curse they put on you, you've given them plenty of fuel. Bad relationships, one traumatic experience after another, failed interviews, compromised immune system... Poor old Herbie. She never could get anything right.

Ouch, let's not go there...

It's a lie, Herbie. It wasn't true when they said it, it isn't true now, and it's never been true.

:cry: Thank you.

My suggestion is that you open a new document and start listing everything that's right about you. I want you, every day, to write at least three things you got right that day.

Thank you. I will do this.

People who know they're mostly right don't get upset and defensive when they put two and two together and get a pillowcase.

:lol: No, they don't - I've always envied them :evil:
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#10

Postby Candid » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:29 am

Hats off to you, Herbie. What a breakthrough! And thank you for validating me.
I've tried working with it, I really have, and I do think I'm a lot stronger than I used to be.
The irony is, it's not about "working with it"; it's about dropping it. How easy is that?
She returned with a huge hammer in her hand, passed it to me and told me to hold it in the air; it helped me to realise what all this was doing to me - the 'weight' I was carrying.
I approve her tactics!
I know this at a head level.
I know you do. And that's what you need to hang on to when the world's against you. Eventually it will become gut-level as well. I'm excited for you, Herbie!
Yes, it was pretty constant... and yes, that's about the size of it.
Fuckem. :shock: :lol: Sometimes you have to say things like that in order to move on. A bit further down the track, you go back and pull them out of their nonsense. You’ll never do it until you’ve fixed your own.
In my old job, I used to be able to organise things and make decisions in a flash, though I've never been able to understand why I'm the complete opposite in my personal life. I guess this explains it to an extent as it's as if I'm not 'me' when I'm working - I'm responsible to my bosses etc, not to my previous caregivers. (Does that make any sense?)
Absolutely. The social self certainly has its value! I'm astounded at how many times I went to work, gave of my genius and chatted with my co-workers, giving them no reason to believe I was anything other than I appeared -- then the minute I was outside, I was crazy again. I mean, quite literally, certifiable and a danger to myself. There's more to redundancy than loss of income, that's for sure!
When someone tells me I've done a good job or that I'm a nice person etc, I shrug it off and want to scream at them "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!"
I knew I was running the gauntlet on our counting thread. I saw it over and over again. Each time, you didn't think "Candid's having a pop at me"; you thought (and said) that you'd offended me; that I was bored with our dialogue; that I was ‘being kind’ and probably had better things to do. Actually, I didn't. When I'm talking to you it's because there's nothing more important to me at that time. It's very likely I get more out of it than you do.

We have a clearer channel now, but let me just say: you will never offend me. Ever. I will never be bored with you. And I am quite simply not anywhere near that ‘kind’! I no longer do anything at all that doesn't have a payoff for me. The wonderful thing is how regularly my total and utter selfishness helps other people. In all the years I had myself on hold and 'tried' to help other people, my strike rate wasn't anywhere near as good. Not only that, but I couldn't keep it up. I got depleted, I fell through the bottom, and here I am.
the person who initiated it (ie the rest just followed suit): I phone her every few days. I've learnt to shut a lot of it out over the years, though if I'm stressed etc it still gets to me and I'll put the phone down in tears. I love her, but it's as if what I say / feel doesn't hold any weight whatsoever "It's not that Herbie... What on earth possessed you to do that? You don't want to do X, go and do Y" and so it goes on.
Only one small tweak is required here, and that's loving you more than you love her. Then it will be healed. Then it will be easy. It will cure her pain about you (but not other areas of her life). It will be a miracle for you.
Ouch, let's not go there...
No, let's not. No point whatsoever.

You're brilliant, Herbie!
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#11

Postby not quite dead yet » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:48 pm

herbie you need to give yourself a pat on the back for getting yourself to therapy does it matter if your with 2 therapists or 20 therapists its what you want that counts. least your facing your demons at end of the day good luck and takecare
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#12

Postby Herbie306 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:23 pm

Thank you, Not quite. You take care too.
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#13

Postby Herbie306 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:42 pm

Candid wrote:A bit further down the track, you go back and pull them out of their nonsense. You’ll never do it until you’ve fixed your own.

I know what you mean, though she has mellowed a lot since I've been to therapy. It's a bit too late to change her any more.

The social self certainly has its value! I'm astounded at how many times I went to work, gave of my genius and chatted with my co-workers, giving them no reason to believe I was anything other than I appeared -- then the minute I was outside, I was crazy again. I mean, quite literally, certifiable and a danger to myself. There's more to redundancy than loss of income, that's for sure!

:shock: Wow, how did you get through that??? (NB only answer if you want to!!). You're so right.

Herbie wrote:When someone tells me I've done a good job or that I'm a nice person etc, I shrug it off and want to scream at them "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!"

Candid wrote:I knew I was running the gauntlet on our counting thread. I saw it over and over again. Each time, you didn't think "Candid's having a pop at me"; you thought (and said) that you'd offended me; that I was bored with our dialogue; that I was ‘being kind’ and probably had better things to do. Actually, I didn't. When I'm talking to you it's because there's nothing more important to me at that time. It's very likely I get more out of it than you do.

I'm sorry - I should trust you (and others) more. Thank you.

We have a clearer channel now, but let me just say: you will never offend me. Ever. I will never be bored with you. And I am quite simply not anywhere near that ‘kind’! I no longer do anything at all that doesn't have a payoff for me.

OK, thanks for clarifying.

I got depleted, I fell through the bottom, and here I am.

I'm sorry to hear that :(. Though it's nice to have you here with us :)

Only one small tweak is required here, and that's loving you more than you love her. Then it will be healed. Then it will be easy. It will cure her pain about you (but not other areas of her life). It will be a miracle for you.

Maybe one day.

You're brilliant, Herbie!

:? Where did that come from? Erm, thank you, so are you :D
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#14

Postby Candid » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:45 am

I know what you mean, though she has mellowed a lot since I've been to therapy. It's a bit too late to change her any more.
I hear what you're saying, although I believe miracles can happen at any age. The main thing is that a shift in you will produce a shift in her. At the very least, you can get to a point where she ceases to be the person who hurt you and becomes the person for whom you feel compassion and sorrow.
Wow, how did you get through that???
Curiously enough, during the worst time of my life I was in the best job I've ever had. I was lucky if I got two hours' sleep a night but the workplace was a terrific environment, they valued what I did, and it was in my own best interests to keep giving it all I'd got.
I'm sorry - I should trust you (and others) more. Thank you.
and
OK, thanks for clarifying.
I fully understand the dynamic of losing both trust and reliable judgment. You're working on that with your daily Herbie's Right journal. Right?
Candid wrote:Only one small tweak is required here, and that's loving you more than you love her. Then it will be healed. Then it will be easy. It will cure her pain about you (but not other areas of her life). It will be a miracle for you.
Herbie306 wrote:Maybe one day.
Let's keep the main focus on loving and appreciating Herbie for now, shall we?
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